2.5 na diesel issues. - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old September 21st, 2014, 02:21 AM
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Cal Thompson
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2.5 na diesel issues.

Recently I was driving around in my "new" 87 Tithonus 110 and it began smoking out of the exhaust. I pulled over and brought up Defender Source to do some research on the culprit. What I learned is that my fuel injection pump timing is probably off and I need to adjust it. I searched and was only able to find very vague descriptions on how to actually do the adjustments. It seemed to be a common and minor issue so I decided it wouldn't be too bad to drive it around for a day or two, until I learn what needs done.

Bad idea... While going up a steep hill, my truck suddenly got loud, started blowing black smoke out of the exhaust, and dropped to about 30% power. I crawled at about 20mph (on flat ground) to the nearest town and parked it. A very nice (random stranger) retired mechanic, who worked at a Uhaul store, checked it out for free and came to the conclusion that I had a bent intake valve (exhaust was blowing out the intake).

I ordered a new de-coke kit for a 2.5 NA diesel and did a ton of research on how to fix an intake valve, but I still have my original question. How the h*** do I fix the injection timing? I poked and prodded it for hours and came to the conclusion that (1) I have no idea what I am doing, and (2) I'm not even certain what I was messing with was actually the fuel injector pump.

I feel like if the fuel injector is such a common issue then there should be a thread showing how to fix it in great detail. If there is (which I hope is the case) can someone point me in the right direction? If there isn't, would someone be so kind as to show me a picture of what I am supposed to be working on, and perhaps help direct me on what to do?

There is no real hurry, as I am still waiting on my de-coke kit in order to fix the valve. Only after that happens will I be able to tell if my timing is right.

I appreciate any help in advance
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  #2  
Old September 21st, 2014, 08:15 AM
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The first thing is to get the shop manual. This will help you ID the components. The job is more of a PITA than anything. If you are just a couple of degrees out, you can adjust the pump from the outside. If your more than that off, it will require removing the front cover ( oh, and all the other crap to get to it..ie: water pump, fan etc.), and then setting the timing via the marks on the inside of the front cover. While you are there, do yourself a favor and replace the belt and cam/crank seal....trust me. You can get a timing kit from RN, but I found a 6mm allen wrench can be used to lock the flywheel in place.
Now....it might take a couple of times to get this "just right", but follow the procedure in the shop manual (notice...SHOP manual, not a haynes..) and it should work out just fine.
Do a search on Guns and Rovers. Someone over there did a short write up on this, but again....get the book.
Pm if I can be of any help. I have a 110 on the way that is having the same issues I will be working on in the next couple of weeks.
RDS has the seals you will need, and "right stuff" is your friend for covers and the like.
Good luck.
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  #3  
Old September 21st, 2014, 08:31 AM
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The pump is center bottom.....best shot I have right this second. And of course the phone pic is upside down....sorry.

Lower right in second pic.......
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06 L322 Range Rover "The Black Pearl"
06 L322 Range Rover "2.0"
97 Disco SD "Emma" (250k and going strong)
95 P38 "Gus" RIP
99 P38 Callaway Edition #106 RIP
85 Defender 110 2.5NA "Margret"
01 D2 SE7 "Cuzn It" (blown up POS)
03 D2 SE "Fred"
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  #4  
Old September 27th, 2014, 01:06 AM
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Cal Thompson
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Sorry I havent been on in a while. I'm on the look out for a shop manual right now. Thanks for all the help.
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  #5  
Old September 27th, 2014, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
Sorry I havent been on in a while. I'm on the look out for a shop manual right now. Thanks for all the help.
I may have a shop manual FS. PM me
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  #6  
Old September 27th, 2014, 07:23 AM
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Sounds like it is time for a 200Tdi. Get rid of that lump of shit 2,5na your Tith will love you for it!
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  #7  
Old September 27th, 2014, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
Recently I was driving around in my "new" 87 Tithonus 110 and it began smoking... What I learned is that my fuel injection pump timing is probably off... up a steep hill, my truck suddenly got loud, started blowing black smoke out of the exhaust, and dropped to about 30% power. I crawled at about 20mph (on flat ground)... came to the conclusion that I had a bent intake valve (exhaust was blowing out the intake)...

I appreciate any help in advance
Cal:
Don't take this as harsh, but you actually have no idea what so ever as to what is wrong with your 110.
You're relying on some forum research and the word of a retired mechanic who may or may not have any idea what he is talking about.
You need to stop relying on speculation and do one of 2 things:
Figure out exactly what is wrong or have someone who knows these engines fix it for you.
It sounds like the latter is your best choice.
Otherwise this is all heresay from someone who does not really have a clue.

Self reliance is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't come overnight.
It takes time to learn about a new engine: months and or years of working sometimes by trial and error depending on how much time you can dedicate.
Obviously shorter if you put in more time, perhaps weeks and or months.
If you want to get it fixed quickly, particularly if it is a new ride, you need to locate a Land Rover specialist familiar with the N/A 2.5.

Since Camp Pendleton, California looks like it is way south, you need to look locally and see if you can find a good shop and tow your 110 there or move it north.
I am sorry you are having these issues and it may be a blessing in that you get rid of the under powered 2.5 N/A and transplant something that will keep up with modern traffic and add a little fun and performance to your drive.
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  #8  
Old September 27th, 2014, 09:33 AM
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shayne young
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If both of what you are saying happened in that sequence it sounds like you have jumped a couple of teeth on the timing belt.. If that is the case, do not mess with the injection pump timing...unless it's too late.. Everything should go back Into specs when you put the belt back on and line everything up... This is of course after you have pulled the head, replaced the bent valves and possibly push rods, adjusted the valves torqued the head bolts correctly etc etc.. Then the lines should all line up and you are good to go... But as mentioned before, while I am sure you are going to be capable I think that getting thrown in at the deep end doing a head job and injection timing on a vehicle that you have no familiarities with at all may be a bit of a foolish move..as Robert said.... At least get someone who knows about Diesel engines to help or assist you on what will probably be the most complex repair you will need to do on a great (but underpowered, by today's standards) engine
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  #9  
Old September 27th, 2014, 10:22 AM
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Agree with the others you'll need some help with this. Ideally somebody local that is familar with these engines can give you some direction.


It's unusual for the pump timing to just "change" while driving unless you've got a problem with the timing belt. If you don't know when the belt was last changed, then it needs to be done anyway.

If something is bent it's more likely a pushrod than a valve. If so, you won't even need to pull the head. But you should probably run a compression test to make sure. HF has a diesel compression tester that works with this engine.
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  #10  
Old September 27th, 2014, 10:52 AM
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If you are going to actually look at it yourself...

First take off the valve cover. It takes a couple of minutes. Look at the push rods and see if any are bent. See if any rockers are really loose.

Then return hear and we will point you in the next direction....
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Old September 27th, 2014, 12:47 PM
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Doubt its a bent valve. The "exhaust" coming out the intake is likely just blow by from a well worn engine.
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Old September 28th, 2014, 09:07 AM
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Cal:
Here's an example of what you might want to have under the hood:

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...d.php?p=568998
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Old September 28th, 2014, 09:19 AM
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shayne young
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If the timing belt has jumped a couple of teeth it could be coming out the exhaust because it's opening off time..!!." Theoretically possible but I would have to think that would cause valve to piston impact on the next stroke... I guess we could hypothesize all day long, but if the noob wants us to help he is going to have 3 things,..supply more info, knowledge of his engine....and most of all some competent help or a workshop manual..
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Old September 28th, 2014, 09:44 AM
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I've never seen one jump teeth. They just break. My money would be on lift pump, an air leak, clogged filter, or knackered ip. Difficult for someone not familiar with diesels to trouble shoot.

------ Follow up post added September 28th, 2014 09:45 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
Cal:
Here's an example of what you might want to have under the hood:

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...d.php?p=568998
A link back to your own post ?
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Old September 28th, 2014, 09:53 AM
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But his driving normal one moment and like shite the next doesn't seem to point to any of those. Ive never seen an injection pump just totally lose timing like that either.. I will admit I've never seen the timing belts break OR. Jump teeth..(just lucky and relatively new to the Lr diesels I guess..) but I have seen timing belts in general do all of these.. AS WELL as strip teeth and they are all basically the same design..albeit shorter..
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Old September 28th, 2014, 09:57 AM
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There are lots of possibilities. It is too hard to diagnose with little information. I had a valve cap fall out once and it still drove, but you got exhaust from intake noise.

It needs to be looked at..... Pull the valve cover and report back.
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Old September 30th, 2014, 11:25 PM
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I really appreciate all of the help. Just to clarify, it is more than just a bit of blowback. I'm talking more air out of the intake than out of the actual exhaust.

I will be trying my hands at the fix myself, if only because I plan to get a 200tdi in the next few months, so it will need towed to a shop regardless. At least this way I can spend some time pulling apart my engine to get some hands on learning the hard way. Absolute worst case I pull the engine apart piece by piece and remove it so all a mechanic has to do is drop in the "new" TDI. Best case, I do the work myself and possibly drive the beast to the shop for the swap.

It's an old engine that probably hasn't been touched since the Tithonus project, so it is in some real need of new seals and belts. I ordered a new decoke kit and it arrived this morning. I am going to change the gaskets myself and I will utilize the many walkthroughs available to try to get through it. Oddly enough, I am much more comfortable doing a gasket change then I am messing with something like the timing, just because I've done it on a dirt bike before, and there are a ton of threads on the 2.5. That isn't to say the timing doesn't still need done, or that I won't be in over my head with the gaskets.

Before I get to that I will be taking the wise advice of Red90 and first pulling the valve cover to do a bit of diagnostics there. If I locate a bent pushrod, I will purchase new pushrods prior to continuing with the gaskets just to see how it changes the status of the engine. It doesn't really help my learning process if I just fix everything at once. I want to be able to see how each fix effects the engine as a whole, to better learn how each coexists.

When both of those are done, I will then tackle the timing. I will check on the belts, most likely ordering replacements as they are probably needed.

I will start the pushrod check this week, and I'll let everyone know what I find.

Thanks,
Cal.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 01:17 AM
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Cal,
I congratulate you for your efforts. So many newbies come here and expect others to fix their trucks or hold their hand while they change a light bulb. I'm guessing by your location its in your DNA to get stuff done as needed. Good on Ya!
Dave S
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Old October 1st, 2014, 08:02 AM
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Agreed... This board is a huge help... To those who are prepared to get in there and help themselves... Not a better place to be...good luck and keep us posted..
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Old October 1st, 2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
I've never seen one jump teeth. They just break. My money would be on lift pump, an air leak, clogged filter, or knackered ip. Difficult for someone not familiar with diesels to trouble shoot.

------ Follow up post added September 28th, 2014 09:45 AM ------



A link back to your own post ?
I was trying to link to a 200TDI in the FS section, but my URL window keeps displaying DefenderSource.com, so thought I would be clever and open the HTML and get the exact link. It was exact OK, just WRONG!

Thanks for pointing out my mistake muthalikka,

------ Follow up post added October 1st, 2014 08:12 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Cal,
I congratulate you for your efforts. So many newbies come here and expect others to fix their trucks or hold their hand while they change a light bulb. I'm guessing by your location its in your DNA to get stuff done as needed. Good on Ya!
Dave S
Ditto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the rover shop View Post
Agreed... This board is a huge help... To those who are prepared to get in there and help themselves... Not a better place to be...good luck and keep us posted..
What Shayne said!
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"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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