what type axles to use under my 109 - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 19th, 2014, 06:56 AM
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Pete Ricci
1965 Series 109 V8 Automatic
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what type axles to use under my 109

I want to upgrade to disc brakes on the front of my 109 ( and maybe rear too)_
the current setup was converted to CV's when the V8 / automatic was installed by the PO.
the gearing is 3.54 also
The conversion kits are to expensive and would kill the budget

so what are the pros and cons to the different land rover axles i could use ie disco vs defender vs ?
thanks
pete
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  #2  
Old January 21st, 2014, 03:31 PM
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Adam
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There are many cons, the only pro is cost.

If you move forward and remove the CV front axle I would like to buy it, assuming it is built with Stage 1 parts.
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  #3  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:32 AM
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Tom Rowe
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How do you plan to use your 109?
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  #4  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 07:43 AM
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Pete Ricci
1965 Series 109 V8 Automatic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antichrist View Post
How do you plan to use your 109?
Fair question: 1is we live in a rather hilly area of virginia, Near term use is daily driving and weekend trail driving on forest service roads and trails to get back to fishing holes or general stuff. trail rating 1-2 with occasional 3 section.
Looking to attend a couple Rover events this year if they don't get in the way of endurance events.
Long term 2-3 years (retiring early) we are planing a north american trip via back roads. Out to New Mexico straight up to canada on accesable parts of the divide, then to alsaka and back. Other "blue sky" thoughts are arctic circle and newfondland trip. All camping trips.
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  #5  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 09:12 AM
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Bill Adams
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As far as I know the only thing "off the shelf" available for leaf sprung axles is the Heystee Automotive disc brake kit.
Alternatives are Toyota axles, coil sprung Rover axles or custom axles. All have their plus and minus points.
I opted for coil sprung Rover axles for my project for a number of reasons. They can be adapted to be used with leaf springs without too much fuss. YRM Metal Solutions in the UK sells all the spring perches and brackets necessary, and Safari HP in FL can get them for you. A day's worth of grinding and welding and you're in bidness. They will make the tires stick out past the bodywork a little.
Toyota axles I have no experience with but I understand they are more or less a straight up swap. That's probably overstating it, but they are closer to the original track width and have lots of aftermarket support.
Custom axles, obviously you can get whatever you want, and you can spend a lot or a little. A pair of junkyard DANA 70 axles from a Chevy truck cut down to width, set up with disc brakes and your choice of ring and pinion, dunno, maybe a couple grand? Add options like HD axles, high steer, and reenforcements and it can go way way up. Look at Spidertracks for a notion of what the prices are for that sort of stuff.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
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1968 2A 88

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  #6  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 09:44 AM
LR Max
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Roversnorth and ROAM also make disc brake kits. Only drawback is that these kits are quite pricey.

For the price, getting a pair of disco axles and swapping out brackets might be cheaper. Also that gives you the ability to get axle parts readily available here in the US. Your wheel selection would increase as well since you could use alloys with the disco axles. Lastly, you would have true 4 wheel disc brakes instead of drums in the rear.

If you think you can acquire and install a set of discovery axles for under $1,000, that might be the better route.

Just a thought.
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  #7  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 09:56 AM
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ROAM currently NLA.
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  #8  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 10:38 AM
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Pete Ricci
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My preferance is to keep the 109 all rover and avoid custom parts. That besides the cost of ROAM / Haysteer is why I was seeking other options.
Bill you point on the axle width being wider is a concern. how much wider? It looks like I will be having a set of wheels widen anyway can I compensate with more offset to keep the tires inside the wheel wells while not increasing turning radius to avoid rubing?
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  #9  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
ROAM currently NLA.
Does that mean never available or just out of stock right now?
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  #10  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 11:01 AM
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Tom Rowe
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Based on your described plans I'd just go with a set of Disco axle assemblies. You should be able to get them pretty cheap at a you-pull-it place.
Keep in mind that the Disco axles will be set up for ABS but you can ignore it.
If you ever need to replace the swivel balls at that time I'd replace them with non-ABS versions.
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Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
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62 88 Regular
67 109 6cyl NADA x2
74 Lightweight - The Antichrist
95 DI 5-speed
95 D90 5-speed
97 D1 Automatic
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  #11  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 11:10 AM
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Are there not a bunch of mods required to fit Disco axles into a Series?
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  #12  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 11:15 AM
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mog portals? just kidding
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  #13  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWalker View Post
My preferance is to keep the 109 all rover and avoid custom parts. That besides the cost of ROAM / Haysteer is why I was seeking other options.
Bill you point on the axle width being wider is a concern. how much wider? It looks like I will be having a set of wheels widen anyway can I compensate with more offset to keep the tires inside the wheel wells while not increasing turning radius to avoid rubing?
Oh Lordy. This is the departure point I was looking at a long while back in the imagineering stage of the current project. There are two ways to go about this. Alter the axles or alter the chassis. I was going to go with the latter until a chassis came along and rendered that moot.
But, the short of it is that you weld coil spring mounts to the chassis and switch out the leaf axles for coil axles.
The rear axle needs to have a D1/RRC/Defender crossmember welded in the chassis for the drop arm mounts. That's pretty much it tho. 4 spring mounts, 4 radius/trailing arm mounts, drop arm mounts. You may need the prop shafts adjusted for length.
This opens up a wide range of spring and axle and shock options.
If you look at my build, it sits on ~3 inch springs, and 235 tires. Sills/floor are at about 29 inches and the seat is at about 40 inches. Tires are about 1.5 inches outside the bodywork, but the spring height is such that rubbing is not possible.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #14  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:11 PM
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Pete Ricci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Oh Lordy. This is the departure point I was looking at a long while back in the imagineering stage of the current project. There are two ways to go about this. Alter the axles or alter the chassis. I was going to go with the latter until a chassis came along and rendered that moot.
But, the short of it is that you weld coil spring mounts to the chassis and switch out the leaf axles for coil axles.
The rear axle needs to have a D1/RRC/Defender crossmember welded in the chassis for the drop arm mounts. That's pretty much it tho. 4 spring mounts, 4 radius/trailing arm mounts, drop arm mounts. You may need the prop shafts adjusted for length.
This opens up a wide range of spring and axle and shock options.
If you look at my build, it sits on ~3 inch springs, and 235 tires. Sills/floor are at about 29 inches and the seat is at about 40 inches. Tires are about 1.5 inches outside the bodywork, but the spring height is such that rubbing is not possible.
So I failed to mention that my frame has serious cancer and has received chemo patches but is on life support. So I am also struggling with leaf or coil. One advisor has suggested the RRC LWB conversion. I'm not convinced going the hybrid approach and getting away from leafs is the best ROI should I sell the 109 down the road. Oh and I will be adding power steering. My Land Crusier has turned into a pita hybrid and I'm kinda regretting it as it sits wanting more attention.

Anybody have an opinion on the torrel conversion? not sure about lumina discs & calipers on an LR
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  #15  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
You might be better off ordering an aftermarket coilsprung series frame.
Winner. You will trim weeks and weeks off your build time, which will pay for itself in spades.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #16  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 02:55 PM
LR Max
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Yeah. Get a coiler chassis. If nothing else, your 109 won't shake itself apart as quickly and the ride will be nice.
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  #17  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Does that mean never available or just out of stock right now?
Call and ask. I have no idea.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #18  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:21 PM
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Pete Ricci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Call and ask. I have no idea.
I called left a message will post when I hear
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  #19  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:33 PM
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Pete Ricci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
It really depends on your skills, time, budget. Its a little bit of work converting a RRC to a series/defender. You might be better off ordering an aftermarket coilsprung series frame.

ROI is always an odd consideration for me. Dont get me wrong, you dont want to burn $100 bills, but at the same time, its a hobby. Whats the ROI on a country club membership and a set of clubs? Or from a transportation aspect, what the ROI on a new car? Do it because you want to build a car.


-Jeff
Skills are good, my shop is well equiped, I have endurance horses so my ROI is always ZERO
As for ROI..that was the business side of me coming out.. I'm not building/repairing the 109 for sale just want to be practical...of course now that I typed that its a land rover how does that fit with practical...anyway

It seems to me that what ever direction the chassis goes I will still need a donner for axles and parts if I want disc which where this all started..I need to get some dimensions for axle widths
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  #20  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:50 PM
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K. Well, there are a LOT of things you have to do to a Range Rover or Disco chassis to get it ready to put a Series body on it. It also has a different side profile, so that stuff like the wings and tub won't sit right. Also, the front frame horns are different. It has been done successfully by a number of people, so it's not like you are reinventing anything. There are however so few advantages to be earned that it ends up being way more work than it should be, if that makes any sense.
Is it possible to save the current chassis and do the spring mods?
Iain at designa chassis and I spoke many times about all this and the quote I got from him for my galvanized hybrid chassis at about 1800 GBP. Shipping was a big bite, but he was going to get it to the dock for me. You could have it sent to Baltimore and then go pick it up.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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