swapping a 200TDI into a Series vehicle using the stock transmission - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 28th, 2013, 11:25 PM
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swapping a 200TDI into a Series vehicle using the stock transmission

I'd like to hear the experiences of anyone who swapped a 200 TDI into their Series rig and kept the stock Series trans, t-case, diff gears, brakes etc.
There are lots of speculative articles and posts but I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done this swap. My main concern is how well the trans and diffs hold up.

thanks
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  #2  
Old July 29th, 2013, 03:44 AM
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http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/...conversion.htm
http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm
I almost swear someone else asked the same question recently...,.

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...ad.php?t=47148
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 10:04 AM
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Thanks Chris......

I've read and reread them many times and the other post was me getting the wrong forum.
I wanted to hear from anyone who has actually made and then driven the swap.
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  #4  
Old July 29th, 2013, 10:44 AM
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A 200 tdi without a 5 speed is like Kristi Yamaguchi without a triple toe loop. In other words, something's missing. Since you can get a stumpy R380 from ashcroft on your doorstep for somewhere around 1700 bux, it would seem like a head slapper not to do it.
I guess I have no room to offer an opinion since I have never done this exact installation, but only because it makes no effing sense to do it that way.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
A 200 tdi without a 5 speed ...makes no effing sense to do it that way.
Well, I guess I don't make any effing sense cos that's what I'm doing.

Don't feel like getting into the 5 speed conversion. Already have a good 4 speed series box with a hi ratio transfer case. Have lots of miles on that trans and transfer case with engines that have alot more power than the comparatively wimpy tdi. Really enjoyed cruising at 75-80mph in a heavy 109, and didn't find the lack of a fifth gear to be any kind of a hindrance.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 10:56 AM
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Well, I guess I don't make any effing sense cos that's what I'm doing.
word

I bow to Dave's expertise in this matter. You really should see what he has to say about the swap. If I recall there is some not insignificant fabrication involved.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:08 AM
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I put a series III tranny/series t-case/fairey overdrive behind a defender 200tdi in my series 1 and it works great. I have 4.11 diffs and it is geared perfectly. Its actually quick, cruises at 70-75 easy and halls ass up hills.

I looked into putting a 5 speed in but in a SWB car it seemed like more of a hassle than it was worth.... and the shifter just wouldn't look 'right' in a series 1.

Just re read your initial post.... I'm not that worried about the transmission but I used toyota axles/diffs due to concern about breakage.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:51 AM
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Turbo is paramount!

If you're planning to install without the turbo, don't do the transplant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdb View Post
I'd like to hear the experiences of anyone who swapped a 200 TDI into their Series rig and kept the stock Series trans, t-case, diff gears, brakes etc.
There are lots of speculative articles and posts but I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done this swap. My main concern is how well the trans and diffs hold up.

thanks
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  #9  
Old July 29th, 2013, 02:41 PM
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Dave.... fabrication issues? 109" or 88"?
Steve.... how long have you been running that configuration?

------ Follow up post added July 29th, 2013 11:48 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
If you're planning to install without the turbo, don't do the transplant.
Robert.....
Could you be more specific.
Guessing: noise, vibration, cost vs. miles per gallon.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 02:50 PM
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Somebody delete my post? Here it is again. http://glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm


I now see rocky also posted that link. Not sure where my post went.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 03:24 PM
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No. Op has two identical threads going.
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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  #12  
Old July 29th, 2013, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
No. Op has two identical threads going.
Thats why... I was getting confused too.

I've only had this one running for a few months but I haven't been that easy on her. I have been on some reasonably gnarly trails in Tahoe with no issue.
The 200tdi doenst make that much power compared to the V8 swaps that eat the series trannys.

And Re no turbo 200's I agree. If your putting a 200 in just keep the turbo!
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  #13  
Old July 29th, 2013, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdb View Post
Robert.....Could you be more specific. Guessing: noise, vibration, cost vs. miles per gallon.
A turbo diesel injected engine (TDI) like the 200 is designed from the draftsman's table to have a turbo. Removing it is idiotic.
I once blew an intercooler hose on a 300TDI 110 and had to drive home... no power fastest it would go was under 60 MPH.
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UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #14  
Old July 29th, 2013, 05:49 PM
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Had a similar experience with a motorhome going over a pass ---- at 6 miles per hour --- until I re-hooked up the hose.
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  #15  
Old October 18th, 2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
A turbo diesel injected engine (TDI) like the 200 is designed from the draftsman's table to have a turbo. Removing it is idiotic.
I once blew an intercooler hose on a 300TDI 110 and had to drive home... no power fastest it would go was under 60 MPH.
While this is an older thread, i would like to point out that TDI with a blown intercooler hose will be far slower than a naturally aspirated diesel, as you lost almost all the air going to the motor, and it just spools it right out of the intercooler hose and into the engine bay. While a naturally aspirated diesel will be slow, it won't have a massive air leak, it just wont have the air turbocharged into the motor.
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Old October 18th, 2013, 09:14 PM
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From the many pages of info on Glencoyne. I only post counter information on this subject since some people are very vocal about dissuading others to not do this conversion and it's only fair that all the information is out there to see.

Realistically in the US it probably doesn't make as much sense as in the UK where the engines are plentiful and dirt cheap. I'd think a gasoline option over here makes more sense(like a V8) since the price of gasoline is less than 1/3 the cost over there.

5. It won't work because.... A special section for the unbelievers - the people who have taken the time to explain to me (usually via Internet forums) why they know the 200Di conversion won't work, even though they haven't driven one.
  • "It's a turbo engine, so the compression ratio will be too low."
The CR of the 200TDi is 19:1, compared with 21:1 for the old 2.5 non-turbo (12J), which is probably how this myth originated. But the 19J turbodiesel also has a 21:1 CR. The reason the TDi has a lower CR than the older engines is down to more efficient direct injection and a better combustion chamber shape. The Ford Transit 2.5 Di engine, which has the same injection system and similar combustion chambers, also runs a 19:1 CR in non-turbo form.
  • "It will overfuel and smoke really badly without the turbo."
On-boost fuelling is controlled by the boost valve. This sits on top of the pump and is connected to the turbo by a pressure line. The boost valve increases fuelling in response to boost pressure. No boost pressure, no extra fuelling. Simple when you think about it. I have never had a problem getting a 200Di through an MoT smoke test.
  • "If you want to keep things simple, why not keep the turbo and leave off the intercooler?"
If you do that you will have to adjust the boost fuelling. The intercooler works by making the air cooler and therefore denser. This allows more fuel to be added. Without the intercooler I suspect that the boost valve will overfuel the engine under load, resulting in black smoke. But there is plenty of information on the Internet on adjusting Bosch VE injection pumps - try http://tinyurl.com/couejq for a good starting point. A non-intercooled TDi might make sense for more heavily laden Series vehicles - perhaps I will try building one some time. You will still need a custom exhaust, and it would probably be a good idea to retain the oil cooler, but the turbo manifold plumbing will be a lot simpler. Many manufacturers offer intercooled and less powerful non-intercooled versions of the same engine, so it wouldn't be a radical step to try a non-intercooled TDi - perhaps call it a 200TD.
  • "It will be really slow. I know because I've driven a Disco with a failed turbo, and that was slow."
I'm sure it was. After all, a Disco 1 is about 50% heavier than an 88 inch Series vehicle, much higher geared, with more rolling resistance from the permament 4wd. And of course a Disco is intended to offer car-like levels of performance and refinement, and only just manages to do so on 111 bhp, so if you lose some power you'll really notice the difference. It's not really the same kind of vehicle as a Series II or III, is it? I'm not saying that a 200Di is as fast as a TDi. Of course it isn't - it's probably got around 30-35% less power. But if you are happy with the performance of a good standard 2.25 petrol, you'll be just as happy with a 200Di. If you are running a 2.25 diesel or an old tired 2.25 petrol with worn bores I can guarantee you will feel the difference - in both performance and economy. And if you do the 200Di conversion and then feel you need more power, just put the turbo back on (along with the intercooler, oil cooler and a free-flowing exhaust).
  • "If you want a non-turbo engine, why not just fit a 2.5 diesel from an old 90 or 110?"
Fair question, but I reckon the 200Di makes more sense than the old 2.5 N/A, and here's why. Firstly, to fit a 12J diesel (from a 90 or 110) to a Series vehicle you need to cut and weld the offside engine mounting on the chassis, as the 12J has a low-mounted injection pump and will foul the chassis. No great problem if you can weld to a reasonable standard, but not ideal if you have a nice new galvanised chassis, and it can be tricky to get the modifications exactly right so that the engine sits level in the chassis. There is another version of this engine, the 15J (ex Sherpa 300 van) which has a high mounted pump, but this one doesn't have a sealed timing cover which makes it less than useful for off-roading. And timing belts for the Sherpa engine are now almost impossible to find. In any case, whether 12J or 15J, both have the same fuel injection, cylinder head and combustion chamber design as the old 2.25 diesel. So although significantly more powerful than a 2.25 they still aren't going to be as good as an engine with direct injection, either in terms of throttle response or fuel economy.
  • "The 200TDi engine was designed as a turbo engine, so you shouldn't take the turbo off."
A while ago I met one of the R&D engineers from an external contractor who had worked on the fuel injection for Project Gemini, as the 200TDi engine was known inside Land Rover. He told me that his company was supplied with both turbo and non-turbo versions of the Gemini, and managed to get both versions performing to Land Rover's satisfaction. For some reason the non-turbo variant never made it into production. I am guessing that it was intended for Third World export market Defenders, and by 1990 that market just wasn't big enough for Land Rover to justify a separate engine variant. Or possibly the new EU diesel emission rules just coming in at that point made it uneconomic to develop and get type approval for an engine variant that would not have been a big seller. I don't know how close Land Rover's own 200Di got to production, but the Microcat electronic parts book provides a small clue. Under the 2.5 N/A engine parts section is a drawing intended to show the turbo feed and return blanking plugs fitted to late 2.5 N/A engines, which used the same block as the 2.5TD. But the drawing very clearly shows a Gemini (TDi) block with turbo blanking plugs. So it looks as though Land Rover at least made a start on producing a parts book for the proposed non-turbo Gemini. I suspect there is an interesting story out there waiting to be told.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Just because you CAN do something certainly doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it....

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why anyone would do the 200DI conversion.
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  #18  
Old October 20th, 2013, 12:08 PM
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As someone else said it makes no sense in the USA considering the investment of getting the 200Tdi in the first place.

In the UK, where you can pick up a Discovery 200 for about 400 bucks (running), and the only complicated part of the swap is the turbo and associated plumbing, it makes sense to lose the turbo and then you only have maybe a $600 total investment and one day's work to install a 200di setup. It requires practically no fabrication.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 01:09 PM
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Interesting thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
From the many pages of info on Glencoyne...A while ago I met one of the R&D engineers from an external contractor who had worked on the fuel injection for Project Gemini, as the 200TDi engine was known inside Land Rover. He told me that his company was supplied with both turbo and non-turbo versions of the Gemini, and managed to get both versions performing to Land Rover's satisfaction. For some reason the non-turbo variant never made it into production. I am guessing that it was intended for Third World export market Defenders, and by 1990 that market just wasn't big enough for Land Rover to justify a separate engine variant. Or possibly the new EU diesel emission rules just coming in at that point made it uneconomic to develop and get type approval for an engine variant that would not have been a big seller. I don't know how close Land Rover's own 200Di got to production, but the Microcat electronic parts book provides a small clue. Under the 2.5 N/A engine parts section is a drawing intended to show the turbo feed and return blanking plugs fitted to late 2.5 N/A engines, which used the same block as the 2.5TD. But the drawing very clearly shows a Gemini (TDi) block with turbo blanking plugs. So it looks as though Land Rover at least made a start on producing a parts book for the proposed non-turbo Gemini. I suspect there is an interesting story out there waiting to be told.
Very interesting indeed.
Was always under the impression that the mushroom shaped combustion chamber located inside each piston in the zero tolerance 200TDI was specifically designed for a boosted inlet charge via a turbo.

I am obviously no expert on this issue, but would think the shared head design without any combustion chamber, would have driven 2 very different piston designs for the 200 ie: one that we see today on the TDI and another we have not seen for a N/A version. There would have also been 2 different injectors and different IP adjustments, if the 2 versions would have shared the same model IP at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by transientmechanic View Post
As someone else said it makes no sense in the USA considering the investment of getting the 200Tdi in the first place.

In the UK, where you can pick up a Discovery 200 for about 400 bucks (running), and the only complicated part of the swap is the turbo and associated plumbing, it makes sense to lose the turbo and then you only have maybe a $600 total investment and one day's work to install a 200di setup. It requires practically no fabrication.
Have noticed in UK people do all sorts of stuff on the cheap, so you make a good point Adam.
The average person can barely take on an engine conversion, but the 200TDI will bolt right up to a series belhousing and one only has to sort out the mounts which are not terribly difficult to overcome.
The 200 is best run with a turbo, but can see how people would leave it off because they don't have the money or skills for any better option (an intercooled turbo).
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  #20  
Old October 22nd, 2013, 05:08 AM
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I've done the 200tdi to SIII trans several times. Have not had one come back. They all started out with fresh transmissions.
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