Replacing Tappets, Sliders and Followers SIIA 5MB 4cyl petrol - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old September 18th, 2016, 11:57 PM
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Baird M. Gehring
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Replacing Tappets, Sliders and Followers SIIA 5MB 4cyl petrol

Last week I replaced the timing chain on my SIIA's 5MB 4 cyl petrol engine hoping to solve the clattering noise it has been making at idle and while driving. The timing chain was somewhat worn as there was slack on the drive side but that did not do much in the way of quieting the engine. I recently acquired this vehicle and was not familiar with how these engines are supposed to sound while running, I thought mine was quite noisy and sounded almost like a diesel and just thought this was just the 'nature of the beast' since LR used the same engine in a diesel version. After I replaced the timing chain, I listened to the engine of a another local petrol SIII and was impressed at how quietly the engine ran and how I could hear the fan over the sound of the engine running. A new workshop manual and a few youtube videos later I have the head off and have inspected the rollers, tappets and sliders to see that some of them have quite a bit of wear on them. I imagine the camshaft is worn as well and will be removing and taking a look at that this week. I have attached pics of each roller and tappet and am wondering why these would be worn in such a way. The most worn roller/tappet assembly was on cylinder number 4 exhaust valve with considerable wear on the sleeve assembly as well. The lower 'claws' if you will, on this particular exhaust valve tappet were nearly worn away. I am wondering why these would have worn so quickly in this way? The PO put a new short block in the truck which has less than 1000 miles on it. Everything else on the head looks good and it has hardened valve seats for unleaded, I adjusted the valve clearances multiple times to .010 which also didn't help with the noise. When ordering new tappet/sliders and rollers are there genuine ones available? Could my damaged tappet/slider/roller assemblies be of an inferior make/brand? Thanks in advance for your advice.
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  #2  
Old September 19th, 2016, 12:17 AM
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Surprised at condition of engine bores, or at least the change in appearance from to back.
Did you ever check oil pressure?
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  #3  
Old September 19th, 2016, 12:43 AM
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I have the dashboard mounted oil pressure gauge mounted near the heater pull cable/ignition switch area. Has always shown ~40 psi on start up, it does tend to stay around 20-30 psi range as the engine heats up but has never really worried me as this engine apparently is running 30W which could probably be changed to 10W-40.
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  #4  
Old September 19th, 2016, 01:09 AM
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Once upon a time a batch of improperly hardened lifters/tappets were sold resulting in many people experiencing your same problem. BRAB and I had the same thing happen to us in the AZ desert last year. We noticed something was funky when we couldn't get the valves adjusted, and then ultimately #1's exhaust tappet ate itself. Genuine ones are still available but at cost. Brandon sourced his from Ike at Pangolin so you could start there before looking at RN or the UK.
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  #5  
Old September 19th, 2016, 04:56 AM
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If you venture over to the Guns and Rovers Board, Paul D and myself have both experienced the same thing.......he actually had it happen twice, back to back.

I used aftermarket parts as the genuine assemblies price is quite astonishing. I can pull the head and fix most of it in an afternoon, so I weighed that against the cost of genuine.

http://www.gunsandrovers.com/showthr...=Ticking+noise

.

http://www.gunsandrovers.com/showthr...Rollers+ridges


I'm not sure what else you plan on doing, but while you have it this far take the head to the machine shop and have them flatten it and basically do a valve job. It's a good time to get new oil seals and if you don't have them already installed, hardened valve seats.
.
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  #6  
Old September 19th, 2016, 06:24 PM
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Thank you all for your replies. Good to know I'm not the only one who has had this problem. Next I guess I need to remove the camshaft and check to see if it has suffered any damage. Is it common to need to replace your camshaft when dealing with rollers/tappets that are worn in such a way? Is the hardening on the camshaft much harder than that of the rollers? I was told I would need to ream out the camshaft bearings if I went with a new camshaft. Thanks.
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  #7  
Old September 19th, 2016, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMGmotors View Post
Thank you all for your replies. Good to know I'm not the only one who has had this problem. Next I guess I need to remove the camshaft and check to see if it has suffered any damage. Is it common to need to replace your camshaft when dealing with rollers/tappets that are worn in such a way? Is the hardening on the camshaft much harder than that of the rollers? I was told I would need to ream out the camshaft bearings if I went with a new camshaft. Thanks.
I'd probably take a flashlight and look down at the Cam instead of taking it all apart to access it. You can see it once you pull your tappet assemblies. Turn the motor over with the starting handle or a wrench and look for flat spots/ridges, etc...

My Cam was fine, but I have another motor I have not taken apart yet that is a spare and I know for a fact it has flat spots on the cam (I can see them through the inspection plate).
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  #8  
Old September 19th, 2016, 08:37 PM
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It is the crap aftermarket rollers. Usually the cam is fine...

The best price for quality ones is from Turner Engineering. Genuine ones are crazy pricey. FYI, they are all the same through to the 300TDI. The TDIs just have a metric retaining bolt.

507829 Tappet Assembly
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  #9  
Old September 19th, 2016, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
The PO put a new short block in the truck which has less than 1000 miles on it.
A short block is a very small portion of the engine. Not sure what you were expecting...

My guess is that the PO slapped the old head along with every other component on the short block. At least the other stuff is pretty cheap...
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Old September 20th, 2016, 05:09 PM
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I'm the aforementioned Paul D on Guns and Rovers. My cam shaft had some scoring. I figured once the hardened surface of the cam lobes were compromised it wasn't worth taking a chance. A new cam isn't all that much money. I didn't have very many miles on the engine when the rollers failed so I didn't worry about the cam bearings. The second failure Contractor mentions was due to an improperly installed oil filter adaptor. Entirely my fault and nothing to do with the rollers and tappets.
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  #11  
Old September 20th, 2016, 06:17 PM
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Be sure to check the tappet guide for wear. The roller can get thrown up against the brass liftter and when that wears away it goes into the guide after that it goes into the block. Don't ask me how I know......

Don't just buy rollers and lifters get the whole assembly. The bottom pic I had to cut the lifter in half to get it out.

The cause for the wear is badly adjusted valve clearances and the bad manufacture of parts. Also check the underside of the rocker arms where they hit the valve stem. If they are dished get new ones as you will never be able to get a proper gap.
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  #12  
Old September 21st, 2016, 02:18 AM
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Removed the camshaft tonight, looks ok aside from maybe some slight scoring and a rough spot here or there. I have a new upgraded cam and tappet set on order from Dare Britannia so will be looking forward to getting those parts in. Checked out my rocker arm faces and the wear on them is minimal, certainly no dishing.
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  #13  
Old October 1st, 2016, 02:35 PM
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While I have the head off I would like to double check and make sure that I have hardened valve seats? I'm assuming I do since the PO said unleaded was approved. Is there a way to tell by looking at the valve seats? I've blown compressed air into the intake ports and I'm getting bubbles in the combustion chambers, some more than others, doesn't seem right.
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  #14  
Old October 1st, 2016, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMGmotors View Post
While I have the head off I would like to double check and make sure that I have hardened valve seats? I'm assuming I do since the PO said unleaded was approved. Is there a way to tell by looking at the valve seats? I've blown compressed air into the intake ports and I'm getting bubbles in the combustion chambers, some more than others, doesn't seem right.
Not really, only thing to do is remove the valves and look to see if any are recessed more than others. You will have to find a reference picture from somewhere. Valves should sit on the seat not into it, get what I mean??
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Old October 1st, 2016, 10:29 PM
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After cleaning the combustion chambers with a small wire brush I can see that there is a ring around the exhaust valve seats, I assume that the ring is from the surface being machined out to accept a pressed in and hardened valve seat. Because the intake valves don't have this ring I therefore assume that the intake valve seats have not been replaced, only the exhaust.
I visually inspected all the valves and the seats and do not see anything out of order. I used some lapping compound on the valve seats that I suspected were leaking and tried testing the head again with no decrease in the air bubbles in each chamber, I'm using 125psi compressed air and blowing into the exhaust ports, maybe that is too much pressure. So any suggestions on how to test for combustion chamber leaks around the valves after all of this would be appreciated. I don't want to put the head on the block without it being assured of it's goodness.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 10:35 PM
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Are you saying you lapped the valves or not? They need to be lapped to be air tight.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 10:52 PM
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Yes I lapped them.

------ Follow up post added October 1st, 2016 10:59 PM ------

I've never done this before, I would like to make sure that I'm doing everything right. How am I supposed to go about testing for air tightness at the valves with the head off? It has been suggested that I fill the the chambers on the head with mineral spirits and let sit overnight and check next day for any reductions/leakage. I've done this prior to lapping the valves and 2 chambers leaked down and 2 did not. But I observed when I took the valves out that the chambers were quite sooty, a symptom of running too rich for some time.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 11:05 PM
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When you lap a valve and it is successful you should see a nice lapped surface on the valve and valve seat all the way around. This ensures you have a full metal ton metal seat.
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  #19  
Old October 2nd, 2016, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BMGmotors View Post
Yes I lapped them.

------ Follow up post added October 1st, 2016 10:59 PM ------

I've never done this before, I would like to make sure that I'm doing everything right. How am I supposed to go about testing for air tightness at the valves with the head off? It has been suggested that I fill the the chambers on the head with mineral spirits and let sit overnight and check next day for any reductions/leakage. I've done this prior to lapping the valves and 2 chambers leaked down and 2 did not. But I observed when I took the valves out that the chambers were quite sooty, a symptom of running too rich for some time.

The mineral spirits leak test was suggested to me when I did mine. I ended up taking it to a machine shop and had them test it with I assume air.
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  #20  
Old October 29th, 2016, 11:40 PM
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Thought it was about time to give y'all an update. Got the little 2.25 back together and it is running strong. Special thanks to Dare Britannia for a new upgraded camshaft, gaskets and roller/slider assemblies! Next on the list is adjusting the carburetor and maybe a new set of tires, anyone have any recommendations for 265/75/16 tires that look good on a SIIA? I have Mud Terrains on now and they are too loud and stiff, may go with a set of BFG All Terrains.
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