Blue Smoke, Runaway RPMs on a 200tdi - Root Cause - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old January 13th, 2018, 09:22 PM
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Blue Smoke, Runaway RPMs on a 200tdi - Root Cause

New here on DS, been mostly spending time on GNR but wanted to post my problem here as my Series III is running a 200tdi

Over the last several weeks, I have been working on getting my 200tdi running like a sewing machine. A couple weeks ago, I finally got the Injection Pump (IP) timed and tweaked it for better performance. I could not have been happier with the results - it started right up, idled beautifully and had great power over the last couple of weeks.

The truck has always puffed a slight amount of blue smoke and there was a healthy trace of oil in the hose from the cyclone breather to the intake and inside the intake hose, so I cleaned them out a few weeks ago just for kicks. The blue smoke was not bad enough to put much effort into it after that.

Yesterday I was out running errands for an hour or so and started to notice the RPMs were not settling back at the normal idle when I was at red lights, etc. I thought maybe the throttle linkage was getting bound up so checked it out this morning and everything seemed OK, yet the idle was still high. I was able to use the idle adjustment on the IP to get it back to a reasonable level and test drove it to see the results. After a couple of miles the RPMs would not return to idle. A couple more miles and the RPMs at idle were extremely high - so much so that the truck would hold 45 mph in 4th gear without using the throttle. At stop lights, it was revving so high I had to shut it off in fear of it running out of control and damaging something. The motor will shit down with teh ignition switch, so no severe runaway issue.

I was able to get it home and into the garage with the RPMs out of control and a driveway/garage full of blue smoke. It is obviously running off its own oil that is getting into the combustion chamber, so I am trying to narrow down the source of that oil. I have read a ton on the subject and it appears as if the sources could be:

BLOW BY FORCING OIL INTO THE INTAKE - I opened the oil filler cap to see if I could feel the blow back but there was none so not sure I have an issue with this. Also, the hose from the cyclone breather and the intake hose that I cleaned a few weeks ago did not seem to have any excess oil in them since I cleaned them.

BLOWN HEAD GASKET - The head was rebuilt on it back in October and was installed with a new head gasket, so my thought is the probability is low that this is the issue and would like to rule out all other possibilities before I resign myself to pulling the head off.

BAD VALVE STEM SEALS - can these even leak enough to cause the symptoms I mention above? Also, I expect these were replaced when the head was rebuilt in October.

LEAKING TURBO OIL SEAL - This is new territory for me. Could this be the cause and if so, is buying a new turbo or sending mine off to be rebuilt the only solution?

So, are there any other sources of the oil in the combustion chamber I am missing? Thoughts on where to start?

Thanks - Farrell
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  #2  
Old January 13th, 2018, 09:44 PM
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I only know about turbo oil leaks.

1. CHRA Hotside Leaks:
1a. Defender 200tdi?
Easiest way to check for oil leak in the turbo oil seals is to remove the exhaust manifold. The Defender exhaust manifold for cylinders 1 and 4 are directly underneath the CHRA and will take the majority of any oil that leaks out the hotside of the CHRA.

If it is indeed the turbo is leaking enough to cause runaway, there should be a huge black oily mess in cylinders 1 and 4.

1b. Discovery 200tdi:
Hot side CHRA seal leaks exit out the exhaust and are unable to drain back into the cylinders.

2. CHRA Cold Side Leaks:
If there is enough turbo oil leakage to cause runaway, you should see an oily mess in your intake. Highly unlikely to have a cold side leak if you see no oil in the intake.

The rest of your options....Depends heavily on who rebuilt your head and how. Lots of hacks about in the automotive world. Highly unlikely for headgasket leak to cause oil to intrude on the cylinders. The cylinder pressure is huge and would be blowing everything out, not sucking oil in.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I only know about turbo oil leaks.

1. CHRA Hotside Leaks:
1a. Defender 200tdi?
Easiest way to check for oil leak in the turbo oil seals is to remove the exhaust manifold. The Defender exhaust manifold for cylinders 1 and 4 are directly underneath the CHRA and will take the majority of any oil that leaks out the hotside of the CHRA.

If it is indeed the turbo is leaking enough to cause runaway, there should be a huge black oily mess in cylinders 1 and 4.

1b. Discovery 200tdi:
Hot side CHRA seal leaks exit out the exhaust and are unable to drain back into the cylinders.

2. CHRA Cold Side Leaks:
If there is enough turbo oil leakage to cause runaway, you should see an oily mess in your intake. Highly unlikely to have a cold side leak if you see no oil in the intake.

The rest of your options....Depends heavily on who rebuilt your head and how. Lots of hacks about in the automotive world. Highly unlikely for headgasket leak to cause oil to intrude on the cylinders. The cylinder pressure is huge and would be blowing everything out, not sucking oil in.

Good insight and direction, thank you. It is a Defender 200tdi. CHRA? Also, if there is an oily mess in 1 and 4, would the glow plugs in 1 and 4 be a mess also?

Thanks again - Farrell
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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:02 PM
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Are you losing engine oil? It is more likely a stuck injection pump. If it was running on crankcase oil the ignition would not turn it off.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katwalk View Post
Good insight and direction, thank you. It is a Defender 200tdi. CHRA? Also, if there is an oily mess in 1 and 4, would the glow plugs in 1 and 4 be a mess also?



Thanks again - Farrell


Glow plug mean nothing. They get oily if they are burnt out. The only real way far a runaway on engine oil to happen is with major blow by. None of the other things will cause a runaway.
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Old January 13th, 2018, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Are you losing engine oil? It is more likely a stuck injection pump. If it was running on crankcase oil the ignition would not turn it off.
Thanks Red - It does not appear to be losing oil other than what is burning. Is there a process to verify a stuck injection pump?

- Farrell
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  #7  
Old January 13th, 2018, 10:21 PM
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Try running a strong dose of diesel fuel conditioner through it. Otherwise it needs to be rebuilt.

Are you using a proper fuel filter?

Like I say. The fact the ignition turns it off proves it is only running on diesel.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 12:26 AM
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CHRA = it is the center section of the turbocharger, it is the replaceable.

It has the exterior housing, intake (impeller) and exhaust (propeller) fans connected by a
shaft, oil seals on each side, bearings (needle or ball) and a central chamber filled with constantly flowing oil ( drain-back to the pan or block while the engine is running) to keep the turbocharger bearings cool and lubricated.

IF you have a EGT it's best not to shut the engine down until it measurers about 200F because the oil in the CHRA can "coke-up" (turn into a rock like substance) and eventually ruin the CHRA.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Try running a strong dose of diesel fuel conditioner through it. Otherwise it needs to be rebuilt.

Are you using a proper fuel filter?

Like I say. The fact the ignition turns it off proves it is only running on diesel.
Not sure what you mean by 'proper' fuel filter, but this is a pic of what I have.....



Would a bad IP cause blue smoke?

I have a rebuilt IP on my work bench, guess I will start by replacing that.

Thanks - Farrell
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  #10  
Old January 14th, 2018, 12:16 PM
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That is the correct filter. Blue smoke is unburned fuel. It can be from injecting too late or engine oil getting in after the combustion event.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 11:08 PM
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White smoke is unburned fuel

Blue smoke is oil

Grey/white can be fuel or coolant.

Black smoke is incomplete combustion under acceleration only
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Old January 14th, 2018, 11:52 PM
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Blue can be fuel as well. There is no real way to tell if it is fuel or crankcase oil from the smoke.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:14 PM
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Any chance that someone would be willing to loan/rent the IP pulley locking tool needed to remove the IP? I can buy it in a kit, but I already have other items in the kit and don't really want to pay for a second set.

Thanks - Farrell

This is what I need.....
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:23 PM
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You check throttle return spring?
Oil in what your explaining is normal unless vented into atmosphere, but I could be seeing it wrong too.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:28 PM
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Yes, when the motor is racing, the throttle lever on the IP is resting on the idle adjustment screw.

Thanks
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Old January 15th, 2018, 04:32 PM
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If you want to understand what is going on inside the pump and how it can get stuck, watch this video.

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  #17  
Old January 15th, 2018, 06:05 PM
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Thanks Red. Interesting stuff. I wish I could say I understood it all, but interesting nonetheless.

- Farrell
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  #18  
Old January 15th, 2018, 06:15 PM
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Plan is already t swap out the I{ fr a rebuilt one I have, but looks like I will be spending some time on the turbo as well. She is seeping pretty good....
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:38 PM
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That just looks like an oil feed line leak.

Probably just needs new crush washers.
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  #20  
Old January 15th, 2018, 06:47 PM
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Didnt catch it, do you have a pyrometer ?
When you say you adjusted things, did you turn the pump up ? Did you mark the stock settings ie, have you tried taking it back to those settings before swapping the IP ?
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