2.25 vs 2.5 camshafts ?? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 22nd, 2013, 02:43 PM
slorocco
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Dan Prasada-Rao
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2.25 vs 2.5 camshafts ??

I've heard repeatedly over the years that a 2.5 petrol cam will wake up a 2.25 motor a bit. Still no hot rod but any improvements are accepted. So here's my real question, does the same hold true for putting a 2.5 diesel cam in a 2.25 diesel motor?
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  #2  
Old July 22nd, 2013, 05:23 PM
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Inquiring minds want to know...
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 07:10 PM
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Robert Davis
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Lethargic 2.25...

Dan:
Years ago, I did a load of research and spent some considerable money trying to improve the performance of the 2.25 petrol. Included in the research and development was cam design. If you examine the can specs between a 2.5 and 2.25 (both petrol & diesel), there is not a lot of difference. Both cams are very very mild.

I even talked to the company that made the cam blanks in Spain trying to get some with the lobes left un-ground with the rest finished so we could put a decent grind on the cam with something like a 112 deg center line and some decent lift and duration, but it was impossible to get unfinished blanks unless you bought a few thousand at a time.

Basically the head design does not flow well to begin with, so the drivability differences of a cam swap from a 2.25 to a 2.5 will be hardly noticeable from behind the wheel. You would be swapping mild for very very slightly less mild with a mild result (so to speak).

ACR and Turner in UK use to make some "high performance" 2.25 components. I tried some of their kit on a 2.25 and while the performance was improved, it was still a 2.25 and still underpowered by my standards. That's when I "threw in the towel" on the 2.25 for good. The next thing you knew the building of engine conversions got underway in my garage.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 08:13 PM
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Robert maybe you can shed some light on this. I was told by the wise sage Peter at Petes Marina Motors in Venice Ca that a high compression head and the crankshaft from 2.5L diesel would really liven up the 2.25l petrol.... Sorry to highjack but felt it might be relevant. He didn't say anything about swapping the cam...
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 07:39 AM
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Dan Prasada-Rao
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Thanks for the responses. So I guess the answer is it would work and would give just a slight improvement. I'm not interested in doing a bunch of work but since the 2.25 diesel motor needs a timing chain, and i have a worn 2.5 diesel on hand I was wondering if it would be worth my time to swap the cam over. I have no desire to pull the motor and all that nonsense unless I'm putting in a complete new/different powerplant.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 07:57 AM
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... would really liven up the 2.25l petrol ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Robert maybe you can shed some light on this. I was told by the wise sage Peter at Petes Marina Motors in Venice Ca that a high compression head and the crankshaft from 2.5L diesel would really liven up the 2.25l petrol.... Sorry to highjack but felt it might be relevant. He didn't say anything about swapping the cam...
Yes all this performance talk like: "liven up a 2.25".
"the 2.5 cam will wake up a 2.25".

Well my friends, to shed a rain cloud over the 2.25 parade, the 2.5 and 2.25 is very very underpowered to begin with. It was built to drive at idle to 40 MPH and is weak even for that role.

Have some of these clever performance gurus show you some dyno figures with positive results that take a 2.25 up to 120 - 140 HP and 180 lb ft or torque where a series engine needs to perform for safety and driveability.

I tried to tow an empty car trailer on the highway with a 2.25 petrol and got kicked off by a state trooper for going too slow on a slight incline for going like 22 mph. Then had to see a podiatrist because I damaged the connective tissue in my right foot because of pressing the accelerator petal to hard under frustration. The doc told me when the petal is all the way down, pressing harder won't help... it was a physiological thing: press harder = more speed. NOT!

The performance of the 2.25, 2.5, and 2.5 TD is pitiful. Don't recall how bad the numbers are, but a 2.25 at best was like 85 HP with around 130 lb ft or torque at MAX, so have someone quantify what a high performance 2.25 does: 90 HP ??? and the ACR stages can take you close to 100. I have to tell you my friends, you may be happy with those numbers, but that is still lethargic. If you ever drove the 140 HP hybrid GM crossflow with 145 lb ft or torque at idle that jumps up to 180 lb ft... leaps forward when you punch the petal and snaps your neck, you would give up on the 2.25 like I did 25 years ago when going to therapy praying my right foot would heal. A series with a 2.25 is not only slow, it's dangerous to pull out on a highway. Could quote the old adage as it has become when Wiley Brownibg borrowed my 109 pickup powered by an all original 2.25 diesel. Wiley said: "I pulled out and a car 5 miles back almost ran into the back of me in that pickup".

My wife and I were hit broadside in the diesel pickup while trying to make a left turn when the car behind us decided to pass because we pulled out and were going too slow. Her remark: "all the other jeeps go much faster, why were you going so slow". I replied by saying my foot was all the way to the floor as I was being attended to by the paramedics.

The Mercedes OM617 with 125 HP and 185 LB FT of torque makes the series trucks fun and drivable and will keep you away from the podiatrist.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 08:39 AM
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What, are you thinking to swap engine again and drop the 4BT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slorocco View Post
Thanks for the responses. So I guess the answer is it would work and would give just a slight improvement. I'm not interested in doing a bunch of work but since the 2.25 diesel motor needs a timing chain, and i have a worn 2.5 diesel on hand I was wondering if it would be worth my time to swap the cam over. I have no desire to pull the motor and all that nonsense unless I'm putting in a complete new/different powerplant.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slorocco View Post
Thanks for the responses. So I guess the answer is it would work and would give just a slight improvement. I'm not interested in doing a bunch of work but since the 2.25 diesel motor needs a timing chain, and i have a worn 2.5 diesel on hand I was wondering if it would be worth my time to swap the cam over. I have no desire to pull the motor and all that nonsense unless I'm putting in a complete new/different powerplant.
It would be a waste of time.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 10:11 AM
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Like that's stopped any of us doing anything! It's all a waste of time depending on how you look at it
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 10:20 AM
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What's the word?

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Like that's stopped any of us doing anything! It's all a waste of time depending on how you look at it
Has your bride been talking to my bride again after meeting briefly???
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 10:27 AM
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Charles Galpin
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Oh hell, I didn't realize they saw each other - no good can come from that! My apologies

I had forgotten what a treasure your place is. I mean I remember it was awesome, but when you get there it just overwhelms you. If you consent, I would like to schedule another boys trip to come down and spend a few hours just for fun.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 10:45 AM
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I have an ACR camshaft. That, with a head shaved all to heck, a rochester carb, port n' polish, valve job, and 2" exhaust, the truck will move pretty good.

I can cruise 60~70 all day on the interstate (I've got a weird vibe right now that kicks in at 65 mph, so that is my limiting factor) and pretty good power off road. Still can't compete with the V8 coiler guys on hill climbs, but I can climb the hill.

That said, it will be about the same cost and you can get better results with a complete re-power. If your 2.25 is shot, look at putting something else in there. You will be A LOT happier, especially if you deal a lot with the mountains.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 10:46 AM
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Mark Garrenton
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When I rebuilt my original 2.25 I ported the cylinder head, added a 32/36 Weber and fabbed a custom tri-Y header and a decent exhaust. The tiny carb, stock manifolds and straw thin exhaust piping suck. The header, which hangs in R Davis' garage to this day, did more to improve power than anything else though the carb did extend the topend. It was actually noticable gains. That said, they are boat anchors. The series trucks are nothing more than tractors with body panels.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 11:13 AM
slorocco
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Dan Prasada-Rao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezzzzzzz View Post
The series trucks are nothing more than tractors with body panels.
If that's the case then they've met the original design specs I guess

Full disclosure here, I picked up a little Series III 88" pickup cab with the 2.25 diesel. The motor does not start. I'm going to do a little trouble shooting with parts on hand and parts that came with it. If that doesn't work, I'll likely swap out the motor for a running motor I have on hand but that's a 2.5 not a 2.25. Bottom line is if I can get the 2.25 running it's good enough for me for a local run about.

No fancy engine swaps this time around. Trying to keep it simple and CHEAP. If anyone has a good running 2.25 diesel boat anchor for free or cheap, I'm open to a simple swap out for and identical engine. I've driven them before and know what they are and what to expect out of them. No surprises there.

I've got other vehicles to use when I need a horsepower fix
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
to 120 - 140 HP and 180 lb ft or torque where a series engine needs to perform for safety and driveability.
Back in the late 1990's when I was engine hunting I had decided that 130 HP and 180 lb ft torque would be the minimum power to safely move my Dormobile cross country. Anything less would be too dangerous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
I tried to tow an empty car trailer on the highway with a 2.25 petrol and got kicked off by a state trooper for going too slow on a slight incline for going like 22 mph. <SNIP>

My wife and I were hit broadside in the diesel pickup while trying to make a left turn when the car behind us decided to pass because we pulled out and were going too slow.
I once tried to pull a steel 2 horse trailer with 2 horses loaded up a steep road. The engine ground to a halt in traffic and I have to shift into low range to get the Rover and horses the rest of the way up the grade. I must have had traffic backed up at least a mile behind me by the time I got to the top.

I had only been rear ended twice with the 2.25L 109. Thankfully both times all the damage was to the other vehicle. But I have had to go into evasive maneuvers more than a few times over the years as impatient drivers did strange and illegal things to try and get past my truck. Passing on blind curves, near the tops of hills and one vehicle following another around me even though they could not see the oncoming traffic. Scared me each time as I often just avoided being hit.

There was one night that kept my eyes open like saucers. I had left Canyon de Chilly that day as it started to rain. It was dark and raining hard when I reached interstate 40 heading West. It was uphill all the way to Flagstaff. Not much of a grade but enough that the best my Dormobile could go was about 50 MPH floored. I 40 has a 70 MPH speed limit in that area. So there I was in a dark, heavy rain with the pedal floored going maybe 50 MPH while 18 wheelers were rocketing up from behind at 70+ MPH. Every time I saw a set of 18 wheeler headlamps coming up from behind in the same lane I kept bracing for a collision.

One day I was driving a 2 lane highway in Eastern Montana when a pair of 18 wheelers came up from behind and passed going at least 20 MPH faster than I was with my pedal to the floor. The first one passed with plenty of space between it and the oncoming 18 wheeler. The one behind it didn't have the space to pass me before a 18 wheeler to 18 wheeler head on so he decided to sacrifice me instead by pulling into my lane with me alongside. I decided it would be a good time to venture off road at around 50 MPH. Thankfully there was no drainage ditch alongside the road or I wouldn't be here to type this reply. Even still a Dormobile can do a LOT of violent bouncing off road at 50 MPH and when I came to a stop I had to sit there for a while before heading back to the road. That is when I decided to get rid of the SIII 8:1 2.25 and replace it with an engine that is safer to use on the highway.

If you don't do any long distance driving and stick mostly to secondary roads that have speed limits below 50 MPH I guess the 2.25 is safe enough. But if you put long cross country highway miles on your truck that engine could be renamed "the widow maker".

I upgraded for safety. Everyone said the OM617 would not fit back then so I opted for a US small block V8. Not a single regret and I still smile merging into traffic on a busy freeway.


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Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slorocco View Post
If that's the case then they've met the original design specs I guess

Full disclosure here, I picked up a little Series III 88" pickup cab with the 2.25 diesel. The motor does not start. I'm going to do a little trouble shooting with parts on hand and parts that came with it. If that doesn't work, I'll likely swap out the motor for a running motor I have on hand but that's a 2.5 not a 2.25. Bottom line is if I can get the 2.25 running it's good enough for me for a local run about.

No fancy engine swaps this time around. Trying to keep it simple and CHEAP. If anyone has a good running 2.25 diesel boat anchor for free or cheap, I'm open to a simple swap out for and identical engine. I've driven them before and know what they are and what to expect out of them. No surprises there.

I've got other vehicles to use when I need a horsepower fix
We are pretty good at this part.....
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  #17  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:21 PM
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engine conversions

Ive done a few engine conversions over the years. Back in the 80's I did everything I could to a 2.25 to get more power. There is a little gain in using a diesel or 2.5 cam- By litle I mean a few HP- not 10. I shaved the head, used a forged diesel crank, diesel cam, 2bbl carb and intake, header exhaust, electric fan that was temperature controled, etc. Yes it was noticable compared to stock but it was still a turd. I swaped it out to a straight GM six and later to the 140hp GM 4 cyl that R.Davis used to make (a much better fit then the 6)
In hindsight I wish the OM617 kit was available back then...Id probably still be driving that 109.
As others mentioned it takes well over 100 hp to make a series truck drivable, more like 120hp and above. Learn from others experiences and knowledge.
The 617's can be bought from many scrap yards for little change. Even with a fitting kit you will come out ahead of a rover tdi conversion and have more power too, not to mention you can get parts everywhere.- Just my 2 cents...J
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:39 PM
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Dan Prasada-Rao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post
If you don't do any long distance driving and stick mostly to secondary roads that have speed limits below 50 MPH I guess the 2.25 is safe enough.

You pretty much nailed it TeriAnn. I know the vehicle/engine and it's limitations. I also know how I intend to use it.

It really amounts to knowing what your requirments are and building YOUR vehicle to meet YOUR requirements with a sufficient saftey margin for yourself and others on the road/trail.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:41 PM
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Rover 3.5 V8 (cough)

I have one under the work bench....


(I know. I got my flame proof coat on and hiding under the table)
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 01:58 PM
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Dan it sounds like you know what you want... Personally I like driving a stock series around town. Nothing wrong with wanting a little more pep from the 2.25L.
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