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  #1  
Old June 19th, 2013, 02:49 AM
Jkkidd00
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Kevin
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1967 nada 109 help!

All,

I just purchased a 1967 NADA 109 that I am starting to work on restoring in California. As we have jumped into the project, the first thing that we have noticed is that the 6 cylinder is not giving us the amount of power that we would expect. The mechanic that was helping me had a 1970 with the 4 cylinder, and he said it had about 20% or more power than my 6 cylinder.

Does any one have any good ideas as to what may be the problem? The mechanic I am working with has not worked on an NADA 6 cylinder before and has not seen the Westlake system either...not that many folks out there have...nothing against my mechanic. I'm learning, too!

Thanks to all!
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  #2  
Old June 19th, 2013, 06:26 AM
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Bill Adams
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Exactly how much power are you expecting? The NADA six is no great performer on its best day.
The 2.25L 4 cylinder and the NADA six are completely different animals; that is, the six is not just a four with two more cylinders.
Did Mechanic do a compression test or cylinder leak-down test to find out if there is a major internal problem that would require extensive repair? Has the carb been cleaned? Has it gotten new plugs wires cap rotor condensor? After all that it is still down on power it may be a slipping clutch.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

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  #3  
Old June 19th, 2013, 07:53 AM
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J. Michael McCaig
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Yes, as suggested, do a complete tune up with carb adjustment. Those engines should run very smoothly almost like a sowing machine when they are right and they do produce more power than the 4 but nothing like a V8. Check the compression as the exhaust valves are located in the block (like an "F" head) and were not designed to run on unleaded. If you have a burned valve it will have a loss of power but the miss won't be quite as noticeable as with a 4 because of the extra cylinders.
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  #4  
Old June 19th, 2013, 10:43 AM
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Robert Davis
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The 109 6 cylinder engine was a unique development to the NADA vehicles for approximately 18 months give or take a few. Rover took the "high performance" Westlake head from the Rover 3 liter 6-cyl and used on a hybrid 6 cylinder NADA engine.

The results were pretty poor.
As Mike stated, the I-O-E, intake over exhaust, F-Head, have the exhaust valves made into the head, resulting in an odd angled block and piston with the exhaust with a wedge shaped head. This design dates back to pre-WWI and heavy on the maintenance. Valves need to be adjusted every 3K miles and there are 4 rocker shafts 2 each combined for the head and block.
Adjusting the exhaust valves requires removing the exhaust manifold and side cover.
There is no effective exhaust guide seal, so the engine sucks oil with each stroke.
The more wear, the more oil consumed.
Most people convert to another engine... no matter how determined they are to stay original.
Eventually the impracticality of the engine combined with multiple failures results in the owners "throwing in the towel" and going with a different engine.

Through my life in the workshop have converted at least a dozen of these to different power plants, first GM 3 liters based on the Mercruiser 140 engine, and now the Mercedes OM617 5 cylinder Turbo Diesel.
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Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
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  #5  
Old June 24th, 2013, 11:00 AM
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Tom Rowe
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Definitely be suspect of the exhaust valves. As hinted at, owners tended to ignore them because they are a pain to adjust.
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Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
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62 88 Regular
67 109 6cyl NADA x2
74 Lightweight - The Antichrist
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  #6  
Old July 2nd, 2013, 09:53 AM
Jkkidd00
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Kevin
1967 Series IIA 109 NADA
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Brake Decisions...original style drum or upgrade to disc?

Thanks for all the help on the power issue. It turns out I had some idle issues that needed adjustments. I took her out on the road and got her up to 65 or so...though I doubt I would ever need to go that fast usually.

My new issue is with the brakes. THe brake pedal will go to the floor and at around 35 mph, I am still floating quite a way to get stopped...in fact, I have had to use the emergency brake to stop a couple times! My mechanic diagnosed a leaky brake line, which fell apart when he touched it, so that had to be rebuilt. The master cylinder, all brake cylinders need to be replaced as well as new race hub seals, hub seals, axle seals...to the tune of around $1,800. So, my question is whether to spend this kind of money (which is a lot of dough) on drum brakes, or go ahead and do the conversion to disc brakes since I would be spending around $2,000 anyway. How much better are the disc versus drum brakes...is it a negligible difference that I shouldn't worry about, and is it more important to keep the truck as original as possible rather than adding non-oriignal components? How much does the conversion cost? Are there good, but cheaper, kits than the $3,000 kit from RN? How much labor would it take to change them out, and are there potential issues with that?

When I bought the rover, I thought that I would probably want to keep it as original as possible, so that is a consideration...though I need to have safe brakes. I'll note, though, that I live in an area with very little rain and no snow/ice.

Thanks for the help!
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  #7  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:35 AM
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Jim Ecker
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Consider going directly to ROAM for the front and rear kits and then source the additional parts you need from Rover vendors. All in all I'd estimate that it will run about 3K unless you install them yourself.
Jim
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  #8  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 07:16 AM
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Tom Rowe
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Based on the total you're saying, it sounds like you're having someone else do the work, which is obviously always going to cost more.
The brake parts themselves are that bad, about the same as my F-250 actually.
Keeping it original or doing major modifications can be a tough call. FWIW, in the mountains of Vermont I was never freaked out by my 109 NADA's brakes, then again I generally have a different mindset driving a Series and don't try to get places fast and use the gearbox for additional braking.

My own experience has been that the Bearmach brake parts worked fine, which are a good deal cheaper that genuine. For example, 47.08 for the unusual front drum vs. 146.58 for genuine. If you do keep the drum brakes I'd definitely look at getting the parts from the UK.
For brake lines definitely copper/nickel from NAPA or Fedhill.
If you do convert, definitely shop around and read the info carefully. Most of the kits require additional parts, like calipers, that will quickly drive the cost higher than you first think.
Whatever route you go, replace the stub axle distance piece, yours are probably grooved. They are replaceable on Series Rovers, something I miss on Defenders and D1's.
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62 88 Regular
67 109 6cyl NADA x2
74 Lightweight - The Antichrist
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95 D90 5-speed
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  #9  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 07:50 AM
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Bill Adams
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Yes disc brakes stop better no question there. When you do a conversion to disc, just keep all the old parts so that if any time in the future someone wants to put it back to original they can.
I don't recall if the NADA sixes came with boosted master cylinder, but if not I would strongly urge you to upgrade that too. The boosted master cylinder will help with your confidence level.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #10  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 08:24 AM
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Robert Davis
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Brake Booster... engine advice

The 1967 IIA that had a clayton dewandre remote booster that added less boost than one from a Series III that was of more conventional design being integrated into the master cylinder.

Here is what is going to happen, Kevin.
The last NADA 6 cylinder 109 engine I rebuilt cost the owner over $4K in parts and labor.
The new over sized pistons were unique to the NADA and because the owner wanted all original, we had to have them made by Jahns Pistons at big money. The engine has 4 rocker shafts that all had to be replaced. The cam bearings are NLS, but match the MG XPAG engine. Then after all this, the engine still burned some oil due to the I_O_E design. Owner never checked the oil, ran it dry, threw a rod, then threatened a law suit after I went out of my way to help him.
He had to have an original engine.

If those engines were a solid, reliable investment, there would be lots of them in use.
Over the years, have replaced dozens of them.
The average mechanic does not know how to tune the SU, fix the fuel pump, or understand how to get it running. Kevin if you are doing this work yourself you're wasting your time and if you are paying someone else, you're wasting your money.
And remember, it's your engine and just because someone "touched it last", does not mean they are responsible for it when it breaks down... and it will break down under the best of circumstances.

Get a different engine is the best advice you'll ever receive.
If you're on a budget a Rover 2.25 gas engine will fit if you swap the transmission belhousing and make some motor mounts.

If you want performance, there are other options, the best being the OM617.
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #11  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 09:42 AM
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Charles Galpin
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I say if the engine is ok now then just leave it be and worry about it if/when it gives trouble.

If doing the brakes yourself is an option I would suggest that. The conversion to disk will cost you tons more - as someone else said you have to buy a bunch of other parts on top of the kit. It would be be awesome though
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  #12  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 10:04 AM
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Bill Adams
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I think a lot of those trucks got a Chevy six. That's what the Scotty's adapter was for.
Back to brakes, I never had any trouble locking up the wheels with drum brakes. When they are adjusted properly, they stop just fine. Only if you are towing or hauling a lot of weight would I say go with discs.
All in all I think you best option is to repair what you have and just deal.
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1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
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  #13  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:12 PM
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Robert Davis
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Kevin's I-O-E 6 is not OK and Scotty's adapter

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
I say if the engine is ok now then just leave it be and worry about it if/when it gives trouble.
The I-O-E 6 engine is not OK, not providing power, and that was the genesis of the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
I think a lot of those trucks got a Chevy six. That's what the Scotty's adapter was for.
Partially correct.

There were a number of versions of the Scotty's adapter.
The first two allowed the most common GM bolt pattern of the day (often caled the 4 bolt) to mate to the 2 different series Land Rover bellhousing patterns:
the Rover 4 cylinder being one and the I-O-E engines (Series I 4 cylinder and the NADA and Euro 6 cylinders).

On the GM side options were all gasoline powered: the GM inline 6 cyl (terrible conversion), GM V8 (worse), GM V6 (just as bad) and the better option Iron Duke type of 4 cylinders: the 153, 151, 151 Crossflow, 181, and 183 hybrid crossflow (sometimes called the Iron Prince).
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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  #14  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:45 PM
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John Crouse
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My 2 cents. I have driven Series rovers throughout the Rockies for years and never felt unsafe on the drum brakes. Maintained and properly adjusted they are fine. The disc conversions are cool, but it's a lot of money.

If the NADA 6 is working for you, tune it up and run with it. If you decide to convert there are many options. I'd also add the 200td to the list of potential transplants. They fit the 109 well.
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  #15  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:47 PM
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Charles Galpin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
The I-O-E 6 engine is not OK, not providing power, and that was the genesis of the thread.
Yes but then he said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkkidd00 View Post
Thanks for all the help on the power issue. It turns out I had some idle issues that needed adjustments. I took her out on the road and got her up to 65 or so...though I doubt I would ever need to go that fast usually.

My new issue is with the brakes.
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  #16  
Old July 3rd, 2013, 10:07 PM
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Tom Rowe
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If the 6 is doing what you need (which it sounds like it is), I'd stick with it for now, but start an engine fund for the day when it's no longer doing what you need. Which will come eventually.
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Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
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62 88 Regular
67 109 6cyl NADA x2
74 Lightweight - The Antichrist
95 DI 5-speed
95 D90 5-speed
97 D1 Automatic
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  #17  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:07 PM
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Wise words from Tom...
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  #18  
Old July 16th, 2013, 12:11 AM
Greg S
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The NADA 6 cylinder 109 had the largest drum brakes. Way bigger than a 4 cylinder 109. Both 11" diameter but I believe the 4 cyl was 2 1/4" wide and the NADA 6 was 3". Substantial difference and worked well, also more difficult and more expensive to get parts for but work well.

If you are interested in a disk conversion for safety purposes and the many thousands of dollars being quoted are scaring you away, I'd suggest you look at the disk brake package from Rocky Mountain Products. It is the Torrel Industries conversion, was incredibly easy to install myself and if I recall correctly, only cost about $1400. It is for the front axle only and the rear drum brakes compliment it nicely. The replacement parts are AC Delco (GM North American) as used on the Pontiac Grand Am.

To read the very thorough installation manual http://parabolicsprings.com/index.html

So easy to install if you have basic mechanical skills, can follow written instruction and can read English. The kit even includes obscure tools you might not already have in your tool box. Packaged in two compact wooden crates that will nicely hold your old drum sets in case you want to swap back when you sell. LOL
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  #19  
Old July 16th, 2013, 07:12 AM
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Tom Rowe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg S View Post
The NADA 6 cylinder 109 had the largest drum brakes. Way bigger than a 4 cylinder 109. Both 11" diameter but I believe the 4 cyl was 2 1/4" wide and the NADA 6 was 3".
The fronts only. Rears are the same as other 109's.
Oddly, the 109 diesel also had 3" wide front shoes. At least the 1967 model year did.
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Tom Rowe
Atlanta, GA

Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
in places even more inaccessible.

62 88 Regular
67 109 6cyl NADA x2
74 Lightweight - The Antichrist
95 DI 5-speed
95 D90 5-speed
97 D1 Automatic
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  #20  
Old July 16th, 2013, 07:40 AM
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Robert Davis
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Wider front Brakes...

The wider brakes were not unique to the 1967 NADA 6 cyl.
To my knowledge the wider brakes were also used on the the 109s that came with the Euro I-O-E 6 cylinder and also the Stage I V-8.
As Tom pointed out, he had experience with a 1967 diesel that had the wider brakes (or at least that's my interpretation).
With Land Rovers there are only general rules and assumptions, nothing is ever had and fast and like the British army uniform, rarely 2 were the same.
I would think that the wider brakes became an option in 1967 or someone swapped the front brakes over to the wider ones because one thing is for sure, the wider brakes were not a requirement for the 2.25 diesel because of anything high performance!
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RDavisinVA

Uncle "Richard" Douglas has a Land Rover with big wheels that never gets stuck... until he breaks something so it won't go. Uncle Douglas always breaks something. - Anna Crowther at the Conclave 2012 (AKA Carburetor Neck)

"What's with this death wobble, Uncle Douglas, I can't keep it in 1 lane?"
UD: "Just Power through it man!"
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