Deal of the century for someone in colorado. Camel trophey discovery - Page 6 - Defender Source
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  #101  
Old June 11th, 2013, 07:15 AM
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[QUOTE=Viggen;445657]With that said, what if most of the damage is post CT, as it is in this case. Most of the brutal damage was not from flipping in the mud, sinking in a river, or sliding into a tree. From the video, the US truck wasnt damaged all that much (unlike the Dutch truck, I believe). Almost all of the damage came from a bad towing experience, unrelated to the actual event. Im not thinking that that adds to its heritage, right?


Hard to say really- is it about the truck, or the life of the truck? It is still an original, with extra history being a scout and a trainer rig. Then add that TC was a participant, and owner of the truck... Bottom line, it is worth what someone will pay- if/when it is for sale.

It was a different time/place 'back then'. Lots of brand loyalty, tons of world wide attention, there had to be significance to the event, etc, etc. This is the original Adventure Race so to speak- while not a race, certainly competitive but properly English competitive.

In the end, it is a piece of LR history and heritage, and this is just another chapter in it's character. I talked to a couple of the CT guys last week, and they all would have bought it had they known of it's availability. Yet, none tried to snake it out from under anyone- proper English competition ;-)
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  #102  
Old June 11th, 2013, 08:18 AM
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I dunno whether you can say that the Camel Trophy was any significant part of American motoring history. It's a very close call to say that it was an event that made any difference in terms of much more than marketing. If I weren't a Rover owner I probably would never have even known such an event ever happened.
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  #103  
Old June 11th, 2013, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovertrader View Post

Hard to say really- is it about the truck, or the life of the truck? It is still an original, with extra history being a scout and a trainer rig. Then add that TC was a participant, and owner of the truck... Bottom line, it is worth what someone will pay- if/when it is for sale.
That is everything really. So, you having had a few CT trucks, at what point or repair would you say the truck is losing originality?


This should not be seen as 'hate' but a genuine curiosity. Its a good piece of history with battle scars but which do you keep? Its history for those that know what it is but not to anyone else. I point out G4 trucks and to others, its just an obnoxiously orange SUV with a bunch of decals. Nothing more, nothing less.
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  #104  
Old June 11th, 2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
I dunno whether you can say that the Camel Trophy was any significant part of American motoring history. It's a very close call to say that it was an event that made any difference in terms of much more than marketing. If I weren't a Rover owner I probably would never have even known such an event ever happened.
Hmmm, that's an interesting perspective Bill. Not sure I agree, but it's a good discussion point. I don't think the CT was a big deal from an American motoring perspective-but rather from an international one. (I'm not sure what the American motoring perspective is aside from Nascar...so relevance there is suspect).

I would say that the legacy created by the CT has had a significant long term effect; it would be interesting to post over on ExpO to see how many folks of a certain age would view the CT as formative to why they got into offroading at least as a backgrounder.

With regard to the truck I think the current owner has the right idea, fix what needs to be fixed to make it seal and driveable and I'd leave the patina otherwise untouched absent corrosion prevention. Perhaps finding replacement kit/decals or suitable substitutes aside. I think moving all the stuff over to a donor Disco would be a tragedy...if someone wants a 200TDi Disco you don't have to wait too much longer before a rust bucket akin to the ROW 90/110's is suitable for import (as a 3 door no less!).
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  #105  
Old June 11th, 2013, 11:03 AM
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jim pendleton
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"With that said, what if most of the damage is post CT, as it is in this case. Most of the brutal damage was not from flipping in the mud, sinking in a river, or sliding into a tree. From the video, the US truck wasnt damaged all that much (unlike the Dutch truck, I believe). Almost all of the damage came from a bad towing experience, unrelated to the actual event. Im not thinking that that adds to its heritage, right?"

The damage was done while it was being used as a training vehicle. By a famous CT organizer and event participant. As well as the person who pioneered the Continental Divide trips and vehicle routes. My memory does not serve me well in a particular detail of the accident. I think Tom Collins might have been using a special edition Hunter RRC with a painted Continental Divide scene along the length of vehicle, to tow the Camel Disco back from a training exercise in the middle of the night and hit black ice on a bridge.

Always a reminder to me of the dangers of flat towing vehicles. Something I have a lot of experience with and a few stories of my own.

Since Mr Winky is self pronounced to be a person of thick skin and open intentions. Lets bring up another matter associated with the purchase of such a vehicle. Did you receive a bill of sale with the purchase of the vehicle? Did you save a copy of the CL ad you referenced to purchase the vehicle? Since you did not receive a title to the vehicle it makes it hard to pronounce rightful ownership of the vehicle. And my memory was that Tom would not sell the vehicle because Land Rover North America would not give him permission to do so. What are the circumstances that led to the sale of the vehicle from Tom Collins? Are their legal records of the transaction? Did he have ownership of the vehicle and any proof of that ownership or right to sell the vehicle? Did anyone that stored and "owned" the vehicle after Tom Collins "sold" it on to them have any proof of ownership or paperwork that showed the legal right to own the vehicle?
My thought is that the vehicle was in the US on a temporary bond that may have expired at some point. Could it be subject to seizure and destruction? Should you be talking openly on a public forum about its ownership?
I would start your ownership by attempting to get a storage lein on the vehicle in the near future in the state of Colorado.
And I would attempt to contact Tom Collins through a mediate person. I do not know who that person could be. But I could ask around to help you find such a person if you want.

These are not old guy tactics to scare you off from ownership. But they are valid points I would consider myself if I had stumbled into the deal you did.
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  #106  
Old June 11th, 2013, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendy View Post
The damage was done while it was being used as a training vehicle. By a famous CT organizer and event participant. As well as the person who pioneered the Continental Divide trips and vehicle routes. My memory does not serve me well in a particular detail of the accident. I think Tom Collins might have been using a special edition Hunter RRC with a painted Continental Divide scene along the length of vehicle, to tow the Camel Disco back from a training exercise in the middle of the night and hit black ice on a bridge.
That I did not know.

Good points on the paper trail for legal ownership.
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  #107  
Old June 11th, 2013, 01:20 PM
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Good points to the reason why i won't sell it just yet. I dunno what happened with the truck, but my bill of sale from land rover goes back to mid 1999 and sold to a gentleman in whitewater Colorado. The bill of sale was a fax from tom collins, if i'm correct. It has Tom Collins' watermark and a date, time, phone number...etc. The name on the bill of sale does not ring any bells, but he lives very close to junction. If Tom Collins even owned it, I have no idea. If he was towing it, this is possible. I would have to ask Tom Collins and i really don't have him on speed dial. I have bill of sales all the way up to me and a Colorado statement of fact from the gentleman stating that the truck is being sold without title and only for offroad use only. That being said, this is the reason why I don't want to sell it, until I'm sure where and who it came from and all the facts match up. I wouldn't want this to fall onto another buyer and him suffer the consequences. I have nothing to hide and if I am to be prosecuted, than so be it. I fear no one but the god i beleive in and if they want to take me to the cleaners, all i have is some sandwhiches and a couple tools. I'd be happy to share them both, anyways. If the original owner wants it back, he can pay me a finders fee. He lost it, I found it, he should feel honored I didn't sell it until I found the story behind it. But if it was sold legally, and the government wants it to be crushed, they can pry it out of my cold hands. If Tom Collins has any info, I'd sure like to talk to him. I feel everything will be A ok. Like I said, not my first rodeo.
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  #108  
Old June 11th, 2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendy View Post
These are not old guy tactics to scare you off from ownership..
Actually, they are old guy 'tactics' being used by same ;-) However, if saying they aren't makes it so, then I am a 20yo with 40 years offroading...

Good seeing the 'old guys', or fellow old guys still engaging!! Good points for sure Pendy.

I spent half a day some years ago w/ TC in Paragon- he was introducing the new FJ on Toyota's behalf, me just up wheeling the 90, and we chatted about all things Rover. He was considering at the time selling off all his rigs except the early Bronco he used to race at Baja and rebuild it as his keeper. Not sure the chronology concerning this discussion, but thought it relevant.
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  #109  
Old June 11th, 2013, 01:51 PM
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I believe there is a way to request import docs based on a VIN. I can't believe LRNA would bring it in illegally, but there are probably some restrictions and what those were in the early 90s or specific to this vehicle I don't know.
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  #110  
Old June 11th, 2013, 01:53 PM
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Mr. Winky,
I'd like to check out your CT the next time I'm in Telluride if that is okay.
BTW - I saw your 4th videos (I was there for a few and last year when the power went off) and hope to make it out again this year.
Telluride is a great place and I'd move there in a second if the family situation (and work) allowed.
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  #111  
Old June 11th, 2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tohelluride View Post
I have nothing to hide and if I am to be prosecuted, than so be it. I fear no one but the god i beleive in and if they want to take me to the cleaners, all i have is some sandwhiches and a couple tools. I'd be happy to share them both, anyways.

You sound like a real standup guy and thats ok by me.

I will call you Mr BBQ like it says in your profile, not Mr Winky as I feel that is being used in a derogatory manner.

I think you should start your own story in Truck Build-up's & Restores.
Keep us up to speed with your progress.

How 'bout $1700?
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  #112  
Old June 12th, 2013, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
I believe there is a way to request import docs based on a VIN. I can't believe LRNA would bring it in illegally, but there are probably some restrictions and what those were in the early 90s or specific to this vehicle I don't know.
Shite happens.... Lol....


Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
Mr. Winky,
I'd like to check out your CT the next time I'm in Telluride if that is okay.
BTW - I saw your 4th videos (I was there for a few and last year when the power went off) and hope to make it out again this year.
Telluride is a great place and I'd move there in a second if the family situation (and work) allowed.
sick! Dude, come over and check it. We'll have some dogs and burgers or something. I will prolly be working late night, but we'll figure something out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
You sound like a real standup guy and thats ok by me.

I will call you Mr BBQ like it says in your profile, not Mr Winky as I feel that is being used in a derogatory manner.

I think you should start your own story in Truck Build-up's & Restores.
Keep us up to speed with your progress.

How 'bout $1700?
Do as you please. BBQ it is or winky it is. Update on the progress is.... I bought a new windshield for 100$ and 60$ for a rear door with window, back side glass, and a potentiometer that looked really new....I know it is a different plug than my RRC, but looks the same. I wanna see what it will do on my range rover, because it has a dead spot on the throttle...
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  #113  
Old June 12th, 2013, 12:03 PM
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Mr. Winky,

Still working on those photos for you. They are so dark it is hard to transfer them. But my attempts so far have been getting better. There is one in particular I have not located just yet also, that I want to pass on.

I was thinking a bit more about the situation you are in. Maybe I have some more advice.

I remember when I was kind of an onlooker at the Camel Trophy team member selections and saw this truck. At one point like I said earlier, Bob Burns who still works for Land Rover North America, let me ride around with him in one of the Camel training Discovery's. I believe it is the one you purchased. Not trying to be redundant here, I am getting to the point now.

Jim Allen that currently does articles for 4wheelparts, and has been a famous writer in the national 4x4 community for decades was there as a sort of photojournalist that was featuring the team selection process. He was taking a lot of pictures of much better quality at the event. In fact, to my knowledge he has been a close friend to Tom Collins and worked to cover and help market many events he was involved in, over a course of 2-3 decades. Jim Allen has his ear pretty close to the ground when it comes to vehicles with important historical value like the one you posses today. My advice would be to contact Jim Allen and ask him to mediate with Tom Collins about any information and propoganda you could collect to provide proof of ownership and collaborate the identity of the Camel Discovery you own. Plus you could get a feature in a magazine somewhere, if you handle yourself well. I would love to read what Jim Allen organized to say about your vehicle. I think he would be approachable about the whole affair. And I am not sure Tom Collins would want to talk directly to you about it initially. Bob Burns might be a good contact as well.
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  #114  
Old June 13th, 2013, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendy View Post
Mr. Winky,

Still working on those photos for you. They are so dark it is hard to transfer them. But my attempts so far have been getting better. There is one in particular I have not located just yet also, that I want to pass on.

I was thinking a bit more about the situation you are in. Maybe I have some more advice.

I remember when I was kind of an onlooker at the Camel Trophy team member selections and saw this truck. At one point like I said earlier, Bob Burns who still works for Land Rover North America, let me ride around with him in one of the Camel training Discovery's. I believe it is the one you purchased. Not trying to be redundant here, I am getting to the point now.

Jim Allen that currently does articles for 4wheelparts, and has been a famous writer in the national 4x4 community for decades was there as a sort of photojournalist that was featuring the team selection process. He was taking a lot of pictures of much better quality at the event. In fact, to my knowledge he has been a close friend to Tom Collins and worked to cover and help market many events he was involved in, over a course of 2-3 decades. Jim Allen has his ear pretty close to the ground when it comes to vehicles with important historical value like the one you posses today. My advice would be to contact Jim Allen and ask him to mediate with Tom Collins about any information and propoganda you could collect to provide proof of ownership and collaborate the identity of the Camel Discovery you own. Plus you could get a feature in a magazine somewhere, if you handle yourself well. I would love to read what Jim Allen organized to say about your vehicle. I think he would be approachable about the whole affair. And I am not sure Tom Collins would want to talk directly to you about it initially. Bob Burns might be a good contact as well.
I will keep this in mind.

Update with pics. Caliper fixed . Took it on a test drive and drove pretty good up Imogene!




Bought a new windshield for 100$ and the back side glass,rear passenger door and potentiometer for my RRC for 60$. Getting windshield probably installed tomorrow.






More to Come!
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  #115  
Old June 13th, 2013, 07:53 AM
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This should def qualify for a build/resto thread. Good stuff on the glass finds.
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  #116  
Old June 13th, 2013, 12:40 PM
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Ok, link for build thread!

http://www.defendersource.com/forum/...256#post446256
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  #117  
Old August 1st, 2013, 07:15 PM
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Peter Vollers
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Great truck. I promote an event in VT with a CT theme, Vermont Overland Trophy, and, in planning the event, I contacted Michael Hussey, '93 CT winner and possible driver of your truck, who lives in Middlebury, VT, to help us kick off VOT this Wed. I announced on FB that Michael was coming to VOT and a friend of mine sent me the link to this forum thread. I forwarded it to Michael and he's very interested in speaking with Tohelluride.

Just so happens I'm taking my fam out to CO in a few weeks to do some of the classic trails and to take in a few stages of the US Pro Cycling Challenge (Bill Burke hooked me up with some key places to watch where wheeling trails intersect with mt. top portions of the race). We'll be in Tell on Mon 8/19 driving Imogene and Ophir with some friends who are renting a jeep and then we'll be mt biking on Tuesday morning. Any chance we could shoot over and take some pics of the truck for Michael on Tues afternoon?

Shoot me an email (pvollers@vermontoverland.com), Tohelluride, with your contact info and I'll be glad to send it to Michael to put you two together.

Thanks!
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  #118  
Old August 2nd, 2013, 08:14 AM
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This may be the greatest Craigslist deal ever. Incredible truck and story. Have fun with it.
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