Not so small project - 6BT and other mods - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old February 14th, 2011, 03:14 PM
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Tony Lawson
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Not so small project - 6BT and other mods

Well, this may almost turn into a full restore. I'm on the fence about a new frame right now. Front and mid is in good shape, but one outrigger looks marginal and both rear frame legs post axle have been replaced/re-welded - and considering what I'm putting in it, having reliable strength back there may be....important. Anyone pulling a trailer from New Orleans to California any time soon?

Goal is a 6BT Cummins, NV4500, LT230. Want to preserve OEM geometry from the T-case and mount back. Yes, I'll deal with strength issues as they manifest. Goal is not to build a rock crawler, but a rig that can climb the 7,200ft Donner Pass with impunity, maybe towing a medium trailer. The 200tdi just doesn't cut it on California Sierra highways.

Motor is from a Ford F700. 175 HP 1997 unit. A few relatively simple mods will put it at 4000 rpm redline and about 300 hp. With a 1.22 t-case and the nv4500, this will give me the speeds I want (32 in tires). A 1.4 would work as well - I have both right now - but will start with the 1.2.

Mating the NV to the Cummins is a stock mount up. The LT to NV is a little more of an issue. I haven't spoken with AA yet, but they still only list the Series box adapter. The Marks TH adapter kit is...pricey, but again, need to speak to AA as they are the US distributor I believe. Worse case is I'll be building a plate and adapter spud shaft in 300M. I know the adapter spud shaft is a somewhat controvercial way to go, but properly built in 300M is should give me 2:1 strength in low gear even with the OEM lt230 spline. I'm trying to avoid making a custom output NV shaft or LT input gear - a straight bolt up as it were. I have CNC capabilities here. Female spline on the spud will have to be EDM'd.

Got the interior torn out. Get to rebuild and glavanize my Tee posts. Surprise. Steve (D90user) has been great at 'suggesting' improvements - you know, while you're at it...

Motor pic says it all. It's a big unit. There is currently a large compressor on the motor's driver side down low(air brake unit). Not sure if I can keep it, but it'd sure be nice. Oil pan and crossing the exhaust will be a pain.

Ian's red ST 90 can be seen in one shot - yes, the one from the Seattle IAAI auction. Not in bad shape. over all.

Should have done this while I was doing the LHD conversion, but it was nice to drive it for awhile.

Oh, and I'll be changing it over to an ST while I'm at it. Might as well while I've got it apart as I learned from the dash conversion. For those following my desire to create molds for the overmolding replacement - still happening, but may get bumped a little.

This may take awhile.....
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  #2  
Old February 14th, 2011, 07:15 PM
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Tony,
Isn't the weight difference huge ? JL/Oilburner here had a 6bt in a 109 but thats with leaf springs. I realize you have a submarine maint shop there that can make anything but it just seems like the truck will be extremely nose heavy and would be challenging to drive. Guess I have to ship your stuff since you posted pictures.
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  #3  
Old February 14th, 2011, 07:59 PM
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I don't think the LT230 will like that much torque. Since nothing else is rover why not use an atlas?
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Old February 15th, 2011, 12:10 AM
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In my opinion you should reconsider your engine choice. and the transmission to.

I think the Cummins 4bt is a better choice due to size and weight. Power upgrades are readily available and 250hp and 500ftlbs is pretty easily attained.

The problem with the NV4500 tranmission is the large gap between the gears. I would look at 6spd options. The 4k spring kit does help with the gear gaps.

The 1.2 tcase is too low with your above described combo. You will want to get a 1:1 tcase or go up to 37" tires.

The engine may spin up to 4000rpm, but it will not really like it. If you want to get good fuel economy you need to have the engine under 2000 rpm at cruising speed.
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Old February 15th, 2011, 05:29 AM
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Please ignore my first post.
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  #6  
Old February 15th, 2011, 02:36 PM
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Tony Lawson
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I knew there would be....comments...and I appreciate all thoughts and experience. Please keep in mind my primary intent - Getting to the Sierras. A hauler. Some fire trails. Being able to get in and out of a snowy, slippery mountain driveway with little to no road maintenance(big heavy nose may or may not be an asset there). Don't know if I'll ever do the Rubicon - 'spose I should have stipulated some of this initially.

Doug - it's about 400 lbs heavier than the 200TDI. That sounds like a lot, but it is practically equal to two guys sitting on the front bumpers. In practice, this didn't do that much to my ride height. Adding heavy duty, or having a set of customs made once it's all said and done, will address ride height. As for drivability - to be seen. For runs to Nordstroms, shouldn't be an issue. On the main highways out here - mostly straight - I also don't seen an issue. On highway turns, I'll have to see how it behaves and address the need of sways at that time. I don't think the OEM front sways will work any more with the 6BT pan. TBD. Tire wear and rating I'll certainly be looking at. For slow crawling, it could be a real issue to lift that heavy nose - but as blasphemous as it is - my 110 will see very little of that type of use. Mostly fire roads when off road. I don't haul more than 4 people, so it's not a hit on my passenger payload. I have to watch my GVW when towing, etc...

James - no way I'll ignore it, it's a good question (if not an Atlas, some other T-case). Some of it has to do with not wanting to change axle input (lt230 being front and rear offset). But to be honest, I'm starting out trying to keep SOME oem components. I like the functionality of the LT for my purposes. But I am looking at other options - I'd be dumb not to as the the NV to LT mating is a PITA. I have not been able to find anything that says what the LT's rating is. If I start blowing them up - I'll know - and we all learn. Plus, I happened to end up with two at my disposal all of a sudden - so I can install one while reworking the other if needed.

Shane - I certainly am heeding what you have to say. As far as I can tell, the numbers are good (speed and torque wise) for the drive train up to 65 MPH (where I'd hit 2200 rpm using the 1.2 LT), which will be 90% of my driving - Ashcroft has a good calculator now that lets you look at rpm/speed/shift point. Beyond that speed....well, milage would be a lesser concern. I realize I may want to go to a 1.1 or 1.0 box if the 1.2 doesn't work out (or increase tire size, but not my first choice). If you think I have my head up my a$$, please feel free to tell my. Or did you already do that?

I KNOW the 6BT is not the best choice for a lot of reasons - and may actually be a bad choice. But it is a relatively cheap and serviceable, powerful, diesel engine in the US market. And no small part of this is to tinker, learn, have some fun, ....and no doubt be annoyed when I start destroying things.

flame away, gents
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  #7  
Old February 15th, 2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16kpsi View Post
James - no way I'll ignore it, it's a good question
I was trying to avoid getting into a debate as to which was stronger. I really don't have the time to go through that again and only want to encourage you in your build. I completely understand your reasoning for needing the offset output of the LT I once came to the same conclusion. I have to agree with shane though about the transmission and gearing. The 6BT really performs well below 2000 and the gear splits of the 4500 are terrible for a daily driver.

Adapting an NV to LT will also require that you rotate the LT counter clockwise so that the diff lock housing clears the over drive housing on the back of the NV or at least that was my experience. I guess since you have a 110 you could make the adaptor longer since rear driveshaft angle is not an issue.

Have you given any thought to addressing the issue 4500's had when mated to the 6BT? I believe the nut that holds 5th gear on the output shaft had a tendency to loosen due to the vibration of the cummins.

Keep us posted and we need more pic's!

Sane, I recently saw your 4BT D90 in the Expo / Vanishing America video. Pretty Cool!
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Old February 21st, 2011, 06:01 PM
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Hey everyone. I'm the guy with the D90 that Shane built. Love that truck! Here are some pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9846236...7622714405068/

It's at The Shop (www.roverrepairshop.com) right now getting some work done. Owning this truck has been a bit of an experience, and though many people have offered to buy it, I won't sell.

Anyway... here's how it all shakes out...

The 4bt is a beast. I've gone everywhere with it and have had no problems other than my own inexperience (snow, sand, rocks, mud, etc.). There are gaps in the gears, but like Shane said, the 4000 spring might solve that issue. Also, the EGTs (Exhaust Gas temps) can get high on the freeway if you are pulling a hill over 55mph. 1st gear is a granny gear and I never even use it -- even on the trail. For all its good looks, cushy ride and capability, the motor is quite loud and the truck seems to act more like a tractor than a car. It has little pep, just torque... sort of a "steady as she goes" climber. It'll pull a stump out of the ground, but will get blown off the line by a kid on a tricycle.

With that being said, however, there is a solution that a lot of 4bt guys have told me might solve everything...
Given my symptoms, and having seen the truck in action on the Carbon Neutral Expedition (www.carbonneutralexpedition.com), all the guys (and these are dudes who are building their own trucks with 4bt motors and other types of diesels) tell me that the timing is off. Now, I've had the timing set, but they tell me that though it might look okay on the outside, it might be only one tooth off on the inside. Taking the cover off and aligning the teeth correctly should make that 4bt run like a hot rod. That's what they say, anyway. We'll see soon, I guess.

I love that truck, and to think that it could run quick, smooth, fast and reliably really stokes my embers!
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  #9  
Old February 21st, 2011, 09:02 PM
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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2594/...9bf_z.jpg?zz=1

That's Sick!

What milage are you averaging?
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Old February 26th, 2011, 03:19 PM
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Has been done.....



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  #11  
Old February 26th, 2011, 08:47 PM
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Based on my experience driving my 6BT powered 109 across the country and as a daily driver work truck for a year or two...

I get the 6BT question a lot, and I can say I do not usually recommend it. It's a brute of an engine and takes some serious shoehorning. It fits great in a 109 with a spring over but it definitely takes some creativity to route the exhaust and fit everything in. The blue hi cap on youtube seems to work great too. I really liked mine (it's apart for some work) but it is not for everyone and the main downside is the noise. It will get to you. Sound deadening is not optional, if you do one thing over the top, do that.

The engine I used was a 1993 Dodge engine with a VE pump (similar to the one in the blue hicap). This is the most docile 6BT. The 7100 pumps are louder and rougher engines, plus heavier as the pump is physically larger. I prefer the little VE pumped motors. They are not as good for huge horsepower but with a couple of mild tweaks will put out 550 ft lbs and 220-250hp. This is enough to turn your 110 into a rocket.

They are smoother than a 4BT and although you will get some mild vibrations at idle (to give you a reference, you will feel it a bit and the defender rearview mirrors will shake just a bit, enough that you can't really see out of them that clearly), anything off idle and it's smooth. 2000 at cruise is too high. You want to gear it lower than that. There is plenty of power and torque to drive a higher gear. With 3.54 and smallish tires I would bet that 1.003 T case gears would work best. My truck ran 37s with 4.10s and with the auto in overdrive (same gears as an NV4500) I was always looking for another gear. I am hoping for 1600 RPMs at 60 mph with my new setup (nv4500).

I use a 1.003 LT230, it has worked great, no issues. I am sure I could break it if I was beating on it very hard, I have pulled 8K lbs and had the throttle floored up some long grades at 25+ PSI boost and never a whimper, as well as some low range beating on 38 inch tires and it worked great.

With a 5 speed you are going to want to use a very small turbo hot side housing, something like 12 cm3. That will make it spool up quick and give you lots of boost early on. I am going to use a mechanical variable geometry turbo, like a 2.8HS. We'll see how it works out.

Rover driveshafts will die. Forget about using stock driveshafts and rear axleshafts. You will literally blow them up. I use LandCruiser double cardan units, all forged, stronger than 1 ton stuff. Most of the drivetrain needs to be beefed up big time. You will also need to beef up the frame where the mounts attach. You would do well to reinforce the whole thing.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4upFa-cgvrY/SN...6/DSCF1074.JPG

In Moab... Drove out from Ottawa, averaged about 20 mpg on 37s, blasted up the pass out of Denver and even passed a Porsche (it really hauls uphill). Only thing I hated was the auto, the 5 speed will be way better.
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  #12  
Old February 28th, 2011, 12:42 PM
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Thanks for the info guys. I know this is no trivial project. Thanks for the pics Holt, great truck

JL, thanks for the specifs. Figured I'd be upgrading on down the line.... but gotta get it in there first. Trying to come up with a 'simple' NV to LT adapter right now. Need to find that jobber main shaft.....
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  #13  
Old March 1st, 2011, 11:18 AM
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I got your PM, looks like you found a source for the shaft. I have not verified that it will work but I am thinking that it should be 35 spline.

I would be interested in the splining but I am doing something else with mine, NP203 doubler in between the N4500 and the LT230, so I will have a 32 spline output to deal with, which means a 32 spline input gear. I will probably cut the splines myself or seek out someone local.

JL
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  #14  
Old March 4th, 2011, 01:29 PM
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Well, so much for the off-the-shelf solution. The P-van shaft (p/n 25331) is a great length but has a 32 spline on it (not the anticipated 35 spline) - not in itself an issue...but no threads or spline for 5th gear. I was worried it might not have the 'fix' for the notorious 5th gear failure in the nv4500, but I guess I was worried about the wrong thing....

So I'll be grinding the Dodge 2wd shafts down to Shane's 32 spline - the GM 35 spline is to large an OD for the Dodge shaft.

I'm going to have three sets of NV4500 mainshafts done - I was only going to do my 1.2 LT gear with the the female and see how that works gearing wise - if need be, I'll do a 1.003 latter - EDM plug will probably do 2-3 broaches. If anyone is interested (or knows of anyone interested) have them get in touch and we can do a low number run.

Dodge mainshaft with 5th gear spline and threads and big 31 spline on top.
GM P-van shaft with smaller 32 spline but no 5th gear features on bottom.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:19 PM
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That second spline for the 2WD dodge shaft is for the speedo drive, not 5th gear. Both shafts have 5th gear spline, only one is full spline, the other one partial. If you an keep them tight there is no problem.

I did not know about the lack of threads, that sucks.

Maybe it would be easier to simply thread the area behind the 5th gear spline for a lock nut?

If you do not end up using that shaft I might buy it from you.

Edit: not sure anymore. Will look into this later.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilburner View Post
That second spline for the 2WD dodge shaft is for the speedo drive, not 5th gear. Both shafts have 5th gear spline, only one is full spline, the other one partial. If you an keep them tight there is no problem.

I did not know about the lack of threads, that sucks.

Maybe it would be easier to simply thread the area behind the 5th gear spline for a lock nut?
it's weirder than that. The '5th' gear partial spline is smaller than the one on the dodge shaft. Area for threading is too small an OD too. Not sure what they had going on with this shaft....but I don't think you'll want it either way!
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Old March 4th, 2011, 04:49 PM
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You have a later HD Dodge shaft with a full spline from a diesel. They are 35 spline. The GM and light duty dodge ones are 31 spline. The early ones (both GM and Dodge, LD and HD) only have half spline engagement into 5th gear. The spline area is enough for torque transfer but it causes other issues due to the geometry.

The 2wd GMs had a long tube spacer that was crushed between the yoke and the gear. It kept everything tight an is impervious to loosening like the Dodge setup. Unfortunately it would be difficult to use this setup with an LT230 as setting length would be very complex, with shims etc.

I am using a LD NV4500 from a 1998 gas dodge. I feel that in a LR application it is more than enough strength, and is compatible with both GM and Dodge mainshafts. Mine will run a 32 spline output from a GM 4x4, into a 32 spline NP203, then a 32 spline output to the LT230. Should work well.
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And a difflocked 4wd turbodiesel Lambo
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  #18  
Old March 4th, 2011, 06:44 PM
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Ah.

I haven't torn down my GM 2wd NV yet (this weekend), so I haven't looked at that yoke/5th gear detail. Makes some sense now. yeah, it would be difficult to create a crush or capture detail for 5th with the LT attachment.

cutting a 32 spline into the LT gear (1.375" OD) should be pretty straight forward. Went by a wire EDM shop today and they felt it should be doable no problem - so long as they can cut straight through. Rough price quote was very reasonable - particularly if I generate the DXF spline file. To do the larger 1.5" OD GM spline it would have to be blind - requires a sinker - so a tool needs to be cut. Price goes up a fair amount.

wait, so you're going to double your LT reduction with the NP box?
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Old March 5th, 2011, 02:51 PM
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There was a thread on Pirate where some of us we trying to figure out if a 35 spline pattern can be cut inside an LT230 input and the consensus was pretty much that 32 is the biggest any of us wanted to try because we were concerned about weakening the gear.

Do you have a figure for reasonable re: EDM? I can cut an internal spline but it takes a long time and I'd think an EDM would do a wonderful job. Would you reharden it afterwards? I would be concerned about getting right through the surface hardening on the gear, but rehardening might affect the gear tooth surface too. I think with 2-3 inches of spline engagement, I would do the file test and if any harder than mild steel I'd run it as-is.

I am going to try and run a doubler before the T case. There are a few reasons. With the dodge tailhousing, the LT230 needs to be spaced back quite a bit as the T case encroaches on the tailhousing (due to the minimal offset of the LT230), so with the NP203, I can clock the reduction box out of the way and give myself a bit of space for the driveshaft. With the length of the adapters required for the other setup the doubler only really lengthens the driveline by 4 inches and it allows me to use all off-the-shelf shafts for adapting.
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Diesel-swapped 1994 80 series Land-cruiser
And a difflocked 4wd turbodiesel Lambo
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  #20  
Old March 7th, 2011, 01:52 PM
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yeah, I saw the thread(s) on pirate. The Dodge 31 spline (20/40 spline? - 1.61" OD) is, in my opinion also, too big - as it cuts into the bearing mount surfaces of the LT gear significantly (a female spline needing a bigger OD than the male it is receiving unless you want to work on an OD fit spline which isn't really the right application here).

The GM 35 spline (24/48 spline - 1.50" OD) is, to me, a perfect spline for the LT gear. It is just inside the counterbore in the LT gear, so it will not cut into the bearing mount surfaces - however, on the PTO side, it will come close to cutting off the PTO drive gear if broached or EDM'd straight through. Blind or sinker style would work, but a much more costly way to cut a spline.

This P-van shaft is a strange (for GM) 32 spline (24/48 spline - 1.38" OD) - I beleive the same spline Roverhybrids put in his 4bt conversion. Would love to use this shaft and having now opened my GM 2wd tranny, I see how 5th is held - but as you said - capturing it with a t-case creates an issue. Nice thing about this spline is it doesn't hurt the PTO output gear and allows through boaching or wire EDM (the cheapest) - so this is the spline I'm going with.

I got a part-in-hand questimate from my wire EDM guy at couple hundred bucks - not bad. No anneal required and in theory no post heat treat required. The reason for this is 1) EDM is a cold cut process - temp doesn't go above 70-80 deg F supposedly and 2) the EDM process re-flows the metal surface down a couple of thousandths - this in theory creates a usable hard surface for splines if cutting through the case hardeded surface - so no post surface hardening required. Looking into it, manufactures are doing this now for this reason - no post spline HT required of precision ground and broached parts as this process always creates movement. I will do a surface hardness test just to see where it's at post process.

Yeah - I know I'm going to run into LT to NV case interferance and am waiting to see how bad or how much I have to move things to deal with it. I think this is why Roverhybrids clocked his T-case so much, but to be determined.
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