87 ex-mod heart transplant 2.5nad to 200tdi - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old April 14th, 2015, 07:55 PM
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87 ex-mod heart transplant 2.5nad to 200tdi

I originally had planned on buying a 300tdi, but after getting a quote of $5000 for labor alone, I immediately pulled the trigger on a 200tdi from Rovers North so that I can do most (all?) of the labor myself. I plan on posting all the information and photos I can, to get some help from everyone on here, and possibly help someone else down the line with my mistakes.


So far I have only purchased the engine with "ancillaries"


Items I need that supposedly come with the kit:
Manifold
Power steering bracket, pump, lines, res
Radiator/intercooler assembly and pipes
Air cleaner with bracket and hoses
Oil cooler pipes
Fuel filter housing
Fan shroud


Items that I know I still need to buy:
New motor mount rubber
New clutch kit
New front and rear main seals (anyone know part #??)
New hoses


If anyone knows of anything I am not thinking of, or has any of the "still need to buy" items, feel free to let me know.


I'm pretty friggin excited to get this moving along.
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  #2  
Old April 14th, 2015, 08:03 PM
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Are you changing the gearbox or t. case? In not, make sure the strength and gear ratios are suitable.... Post up the serial numbers if you are not sure.

I assume this is a Defender 200TDI?

Plan to change the timing belt and idler, plus timing case seal and cam seal unless these are known to have been changed. Change all clutch throwout parts. They all fail eventually. A HD clutch throwout bearing is a good idea.

You either need to change the exhaust or custom marry the new to old.

Download the parts catalog so you don't have to beg for part numbers.
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  #3  
Old April 14th, 2015, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
I originally had planned on buying a 300tdi, but after getting a quote of $5000 for labor alone, I immediately pulled the trigger on a 200tdi from Rovers North...
This is exactly why I posted the differences among the 200 & 300TDI in your last thread.
To help you deal with the inevitable choice for a man on a budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
I assume this is a Defender 200TDI?
All John's advice is good, but pay special attention to this one.
The Defender 200TDI and Disco 200TDI are very different.
The Disco engine is more common, but harder to fit to a 110, especially a LHD one.
I don't remember if you were RHD or LHD.
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  #4  
Old April 14th, 2015, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Are you changing the gearbox or t. case? In not, make sure the strength and gear ratios are suitable.... Post up the serial numbers if you are not sure.

I assume this is a Defender 200TDI?

Plan to change the timing belt and idler, plus timing case seal and cam seal unless these are known to have been changed. Change all clutch throwout parts. They all fail eventually. A HD clutch throwout bearing is a good idea.

You either need to change the exhaust or custom marry the new to old.

Download the parts catalog so you don't have to beg for part numbers.
That's some good info, thank you.

It is a Defender 200TDI, so that should make my life a bit easier.

Currently I believe I have a transfer case with a ratio of 1.6. I'm on the lookout for a 1.4, and I would take an inexpensive 1.2, but I was going to hold off on getting that until I am done with everything else just to minimize the initial hit to the wallet. I looked around and it seems that there are some people still running the 1.6, so I was under the impression that it isn't dangerous for the engine if I handle the acceleration gently and don't expect her to go much faster than with the 2.5nad. Am I wrong in assuming this or should a 1.4 or 1.2 be a priority as well?

Does anyone make an aftermarket adapter to marry the 200TDI with the 2.5nad exhaust? That seems too good to be true, but I figure I should ask.

Added to the list of things I need to locate and buy:
Timing belt and idler
Timing case seal
Cam seal
Clutch throwout parts
Exhaust

------ Follow up post added April 14th, 2015 06:36 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post

All John's advice is good, but pay special attention to this one.
The Defender 200TDI and Disco 300TDI are very different.
The Disco engine is more common, but harder to fit to a 110, especially a LHD one.
I don't remember if you were RHD or LHD.
The primary reason I bought the one from Rovers North is because they specifically said it was a Defender 200TDI. I don't think I have the knowledge and experience to be able to fit a Disco 200TDI by myself. My rover is a RHD.
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  #5  
Old April 15th, 2015, 09:47 AM
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You'll need an exhaust downpipe. That is the first pipe that attaches to the turbo outlet. From there you can have a local exhaust shop fab the rest. I am running a straight pipe, no muffler. I don't find it too loud. There is a bracket that is used to bolt the lower part of the downpipe to the engine block. Hopefully your engine still has that, but if not you can make one.


On the t-case, a 1.2 ratio works perfectly if you are running your original military transmission. I wouldn't go to a 1.4 unless you are changing the transmission or you put huge tires on it. You can source an inexpensive 1.2 ratio transfer case here in the States. If you want to enjoy the advantages of the 200tdi then you'll want the higher ratio. It will help your economy and quiet things down, in addition to increasing top speed.


Sounds like your engine will come pretty complete, that's good because some of those little nick nacks are a pain to hunt down. For instance the air cleaner bracket, that's a tough one.


Off the top of my head, you'll need to change the bolt on brackets that secure the top of the radiator frame. If RN sends those that would be great, otherwise you'll have to modify your existing brackets to work. You'll probably need the correct throttle cable if they aren't including one.


Looks like you'll be doing a power steering conversion at the same time, which means you'll need a power steering box, hoses, and reservoir. That isn't obligatory however. Assuming you're on a budget, I'd gladly take the 1.2 transfer case before power steering.


If you have everything you need on hand, this could be done easily in a weekend except for the exhaust from the downpipe back.
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  #6  
Old April 15th, 2015, 10:10 AM
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Have a check of which suffix gearbox you have currently. The earlier ones are not as strong and tend to fail under the added stress of the TDI. It will be fine for a bit, but something to budget for. Also the correct TDI gearboxes have a higher 5th gear, which works better with the engine.

Personally I would not do a 1.2 with a 110. Loaded up, taking off in 1st will be difficult. If you are comfortable with low range starts on hill, you might be okay, but not everyone is willing to do that. YMMV.....
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  #7  
Old April 15th, 2015, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Have a check of which suffix gearbox you have currently. The earlier ones are not as strong and tend to fail under the added stress of the TDI. It will be fine for a bit, but something to budget for. Also the correct TDI gearboxes have a higher 5th gear, which works better with the engine.

Personally I would not do a 1.2 with a 110. Loaded up, taking off in 1st will be difficult. If you are comfortable with low range starts on hill, you might be okay, but not everyone is willing to do that. YMMV.....
Totally agree that the early LT77 is questionable behind the 200tdi. There is a reason that LR upgraded them when the 200tdi came along. Mine failed, so I have experience there.

On the other hand the 1.2 works great with the MOD LT77 (while it lasts anyway). Remember the military gearbox has a lower first and second gear, and a shorter fifth gear than the civilian box. I ran that combo for about a year and a half and I preferred it to the civvy 200tdi spec LT77 and 1.4 that's in there now.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatblanket View Post
You'll need an exhaust downpipe. That is the first pipe that attaches to the turbo outlet. From there you can have a local exhaust shop fab the rest. I am running a straight pipe, no muffler. I don't find it too loud. There is a bracket that is used to bolt the lower part of the downpipe to the engine block. Hopefully your engine still has that, but if not you can make one.


On the t-case, a 1.2 ratio works perfectly if you are running your original military transmission. I wouldn't go to a 1.4 unless you are changing the transmission or you put huge tires on it. You can source an inexpensive 1.2 ratio transfer case here in the States. If you want to enjoy the advantages of the 200tdi then you'll want the higher ratio. It will help your economy and quiet things down, in addition to increasing top speed.


Sounds like your engine will come pretty complete, that's good because some of those little nick nacks are a pain to hunt down. For instance the air cleaner bracket, that's a tough one.


Off the top of my head, you'll need to change the bolt on brackets that secure the top of the radiator frame. If RN sends those that would be great, otherwise you'll have to modify your existing brackets to work. You'll probably need the correct throttle cable if they aren't including one.


Looks like you'll be doing a power steering conversion at the same time, which means you'll need a power steering box, hoses, and reservoir. That isn't obligatory however. Assuming you're on a budget, I'd gladly take the 1.2 transfer case before power steering.


If you have everything you need on hand, this could be done easily in a weekend except for the exhaust from the downpipe back.

I was told earlier that the power steering is mandatory for some reason or another. I personally don't really care. I've never had an issue with my landy's manual steering, so I would rather not deal with it, so your saying it isn't necessary simplifies my plan quite a bit.


You are the first one to say I should go 1.2 over 1.4. A couple others have said the military rovers are too heavy and a 1.2 would be bad for hilly CA. I don't know if they are talking first hand or not, so I'm more inclined to believe you since you have actual experience. Now I'm nice and split hahaha


That's good to know about the exhaust. I'm going to price out the cost of an entire exhaust system vs just the downpipe and I'll weigh my options. I work on a military base. Half the trucks here are running straight pipes, so I don't think I will stick out too much.


I'll add these to the list of stuff I need confirmation on.
Radiator top bracket
throttle cable
air cleaner brackets

------ Follow up post added April 15th, 2015 09:17 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by meatblanket View Post
Totally agree that the early LT77 is questionable behind the 200tdi. There is a reason that LR upgraded them when the 200tdi came along. Mine failed, so I have experience there.

On the other hand the 1.2 works great with the MOD LT77 (while it lasts anyway). Remember the military gearbox has a lower first and second gear, and a shorter fifth gear than the civilian box. I ran that combo for about a year and a half and I preferred it to the civvy 200tdi spec LT77 and 1.4 that's in there now.

This seems to clarify why I've been getting such mixed reviews about whether or not I want a 1.4 v 1.2.



So it sounds like I should go with a 1.2 as long as I have a MOD LT77, but switch it to a 1.4 if/when I swap to a civilian LT77? I don't think I'll be switching my LT77 any time soon, but I'm glad I know it's an issue so I wont be caught off guard if it fails on me.
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  #9  
Old April 15th, 2015, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post

So it sounds like I should go with a 1.2 as long as I have a MOD LT77, but switch it to a 1.4 if/when I swap to a civilian LT77?
Yes, exactly. I guess the downside is that if you blow up your MOD LT77 like I did, you'll be looking for a new transmission AND transfer case.

For long term durability you'd be better off with a 200tdi spec civvy transmission (better yet a stumpy R380) and 1.4 box.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 01:14 PM
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If Cal chooses not to convert to Power Steering what challenges will he face decommissioning the system that currently exists at the engine, ie; pulley/pump etc.?

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Old April 15th, 2015, 01:16 PM
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Remove PS pump / Brackets and belt that is pretty much it
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Old April 15th, 2015, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatblanket View Post
On the other hand the 1.2 works great with the MOD LT77 (while it lasts anyway). Remember the military gearbox has a lower first and second gear, and a shorter fifth gear than the civilian box. I ran that combo for about a year and a half and I preferred it to the civvy 200tdi spec LT77 and 1.4 that's in there now.
My truck has a military LT77 and 1.2 t. case, so my recommendations are first hand. IMO, 1st is a bit too high in a 110 for most people's tastes.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
I was told earlier that the power steering is mandatory for some reason or another. I personally don't really care. I've never had an issue with my landy's manual steering, so I would rather not deal with it, so your saying it isn't necessary simplifies my plan quite a bit.

So it sounds like I should go with a 1.2 as long as I have a MOD LT77, but switch it to a 1.4 if/when I swap to a civilian LT77? I don't think I'll be switching my LT77 any time soon, but I'm glad I know it's an issue so I wont be caught off guard if it fails on me.
No idea why people say you can't use manual steering.

On the gearbox, check the suffix. You may have a later box and it can be just as strong as the 200TDI one.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 02:34 PM
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If Cal chooses not to convert to Power Steering what challenges will he face decommissioning the system that currently exists at the engine, ie; pulley/pump etc
Remove the PS pump belt.
To my knowledge no issues, but since his engine should have a PS pump, he can add lines and PS steering box any time he decides to bolt the belt back on.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 02:46 PM
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Use the PS pump to run a manly hydraulic winch
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Old April 15th, 2015, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
My truck has a military LT77 and 1.2 t. case, so my recommendations are first hand. IMO, 1st is a bit too high in a 110 for most people's tastes.
My observations are also first hand, with a military 110. 1st isn't too high with the military box and the 1.2 case. Running the numbers on the Ashcroft calculator confirms that. Ist gear with MOD LT77 and 1.2 case is 17 to 1. 1st gear with 200tdi LT77 and 1.4 case is 18.43 to 1. Not much difference there. Certainly not enough to cause someone to grab low range taking off from a start.

The advantage to the 1.4 box is not having to replace it when the MOD LT77 eventually gives up. In the interim you get more noise, engine wear, and diminished fuel economy.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 03:34 PM
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The stages one typically goes through following the decision to launch into a project like this. Excitement - Confusion - Fear - Anger - Relief.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by meatblanket View Post
The advantage to the 1.4 box is not having to replace it when the MOD LT77 eventually gives up. In the interim you get more noise, engine wear, and diminished fuel economy.
You don't need to replace the MOD geared box with a civilian geared box. You can get a G suffix box or you can get a stumpy R380 with the same low 1st and second gears or you can put the lower gears into any G or earlier box.

A G box is just as strong as the H used in the 200TDIs. I have a G and have put 40000 miles on it behind the 200TDI. Still feels like new.

Lots of military Defenders have stumpy R380s with the same lower gearing.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 1of40 View Post
The stages one typically goes through following the decision to launch into a project like this. Excitement - Confusion - Fear - Anger - Relief.

Well I'm sitting pretty in stage 2. Good to know I'm not the only one.


I've been going back and forth with this transfer box issue so much over the last couple of days that I'm about to just flip a coin and buy the cheapest one I can find regardless of the ratio.
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Old April 15th, 2015, 08:58 PM
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I've got a n Ashcroft 1.2 gear set if you want to just upgrade your 1.6 box. $250 new never used.
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