200TDi - Clackety Clack - Advice Needed - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 10th, 2016, 06:36 PM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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200TDi - Clackety Clack - Advice Needed

So, I installed a “rebuilt head” which I think really just consisted of a light skim, valves seated and new valve seals. This to replace a head with stuck/seized injectors. Ran great for about 250 km and then when driving in town at around 25 mph, clackety clack. No temp or other apparent running issues. Shut her down and pulled over, and then towed home, fortunately just a few blocks from the house. Took the valve cover off to find a broken spring and no valve stem to be seen. I’m thinking the valve went through the piston.

Got the head off – see picks below. Good news is no sign of wear or damage to the cylinder wall and just divots in the piston. Moves up and down smoothly and to the same apparent height as the next piston. Head took a couple good wacks. My current/tentative plan is as follows:
• Drop the oil pan and install a new piston assembly (std X).
• New oil pump while there.
• Order valve related parts including new exhaust valve, seat and guide, not to mention spring, cap, tappet assembly, push rod, gaskets etc.
• Take both heads to a machine shop in the Brunswick Maine area (any recommendations?) Hopefully they can salvage one if not both. For the head that I originally took out, I got three of the four injectors out and the other moves with considerable force.

Any advice, concerns etc would be greatly appreciated.
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #2  
Old July 10th, 2016, 07:10 PM
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John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
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If it is a Defender engine, you can't get to the crank with the engine attached to the gearbox....
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  #3  
Old July 10th, 2016, 07:12 PM
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Doug Crowther
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damn, is this on the 130 ?
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  #4  
Old July 10th, 2016, 07:31 PM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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Location: Cairo, Egypt / Maine, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
If it is a Defender engine, you can't get to the crank with the engine attached to the gearbox....
It is a defender 90. Just crawled back under the engine and seems like plenty of space to get the oil pan off. Are you saying that I have to take off the aluminum "ladder assembly", as described in the parts list, off as well? I can't get to the connecting rod bolts and bearings through that? I did have the oil pan off a year or so ago but my memory ain't what it used to be.

------ Follow up post added July 11th, 2016 02:35 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
damn, is this on the 130 ?
Nope, the 90. The 130 still has a long way to go before startup, although that 200tdi was running fine just a few months ago and is garaged. The 200TDi that went into the 90 sat for a while and got wet when I imported it. That's presumably why the injectors seized into the head.
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #5  
Old July 10th, 2016, 07:41 PM
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John B.
1991 Defender 90, 200TDI
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Yes. The ladder frame needs to come off.
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  #6  
Old July 10th, 2016, 07:55 PM
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Abraham Bell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Yes. The ladder frame needs to come off.
This is true
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  #7  
Old July 10th, 2016, 08:05 PM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
Yes. The ladder frame needs to come off.
https://mud4fun.com/2010/10/30/remov...-ladder-frame/

Damn British engineering!

And I suppose your going to tell me it would be crazy to leave the piston in and take a little off the divots to make sure it doesn't protrude higher than the top of the piston face. I'm afraid I know the answer, I was just somewhat relieved that I wasn't going to have to remove the engine.

So, if I need to replace take off the ladder frame, any other recommendations while I'm there?

Seems like it's time to order an engine hoist. Coincidentally a good thread on one earlier today.
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #8  
Old July 11th, 2016, 03:17 AM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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Any recommendations on a local US alternative to Hypogrip 2000 as a Ladder Frame to block gasket?
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #9  
Old July 11th, 2016, 05:05 AM
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Abraham Bell
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  #10  
Old July 11th, 2016, 06:28 AM
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Bill Adams
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FWIW, a new built head from LR direct.com was far cheaper for me than rebuilding. It comes ready to bolt on. Packed super nice in its own mini crate made of plywood. Included new bolts.
Currently $360.26 for a 300 head. PN ERR5027COM
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  #11  
Old July 11th, 2016, 11:04 AM
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Robert Davis
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When it's apart be sure and carefully check the connecting rod.
The can get slightly bent and fool you into thinking they are straight based on piston travel.
As an example if the rod is slightly twisted, the piston can travel the same height, but the rod is still bent.
Had this happen to a 300TDI.

If you want to salvage the injector cores, keep a wrench, pliers, vice grips off the area where the hole is for the spill over line attaches. Gouging this area can ruin the injector or require it to be machined before being rebuilt. Also rotate the injector clockwise only. If you turn ot counter clockwise, you can unscrew it, making it come apart and when you screw it back together the internals can be ruined.

Make sure the shop examines the small bridge between the valves for cracks.
200TDI heads are notorious for cracking across this bridge.
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  #12  
Old July 11th, 2016, 05:19 PM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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Location: Cairo, Egypt / Maine, USA
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
FWIW, a new built head from LR direct.com was far cheaper for me than rebuilding. It comes ready to bolt on. Packed super nice in its own mini crate made of plywood. Included new bolts.
Currently $360.26 for a 300 head. PN ERR5027COM
Thanks for the link. That's a good alternative. I'm still hoping to salvage at least one of the two 200TDi heads that I have. There getting pretty expensive and harder to find. 300 heads will likely be the way of the future. Some good threads here on installing them on 200 blocks.

------ Follow up post added July 12th, 2016 12:27 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdavisinva View Post
When it's apart be sure and carefully check the connecting rod.
The can get slightly bent and fool you into thinking they are straight based on piston travel.
As an example if the rod is slightly twisted, the piston can travel the same height, but the rod is still bent.
Had this happen to a 300TDI.

If you want to salvage the injector cores, keep a wrench, pliers, vice grips off the area where the hole is for the spill over line attaches. Gouging this area can ruin the injector or require it to be machined before being rebuilt. Also rotate the injector clockwise only. If you turn ot counter clockwise, you can unscrew it, making it come apart and when you screw it back together the internals can be ruined.

Make sure the shop examines the small bridge between the valves for cracks.
200TDI heads are notorious for cracking across this bridge.
Is that something that a machine shop can check, or given the money I'm putting into the fix, a new rod is a small amount of insurance to be sure? Will have the machine shop take a close look at the bridge between the valves. That one divot is pretty close.
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #13  
Old July 13th, 2016, 09:03 AM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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Any recommendations on an automotive machine shop in the Portland Maine area?
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #14  
Old July 16th, 2016, 03:00 PM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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OK, so I pulled the engine which meant re-attaching the head, old head gasket in place and six snugged down head bolts. Using my new hoist, I tranferred to the engine stand and then took the head off.

I'd already ordered parts which came in a day from the UK. While looking up, one item that I didn't notice seeing in the carnage was the valve seat which is effectively a large washer. I couldn't figure out where it might have went given the size etc. I didn't give it much more thought at the time.

So I set the head back on the bench (first pick) when I noticed another valve spring appeared a bit skewed. Upon closer inspection (second pick), that spring is cracked and about to go. It appears that when the valves were reinstalled after the head was skimmed, at least some of the valve seats was not installed. The valve doesn't fit in the depression for the seat evenly thereby causing some torsion and ultimately failure.

So much for professionally rebuilt. I'll see what the guy who had the work done on the head in the UK has to say.
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Mike

1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #15  
Old July 18th, 2016, 11:49 AM
300tdi convert
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Michael Giddinge
Late 80s 110 300tdi
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So I took the heads to a guy in town who does racing engines etc. Been around a long time and well regarded. Anyway, doesn't think the springs breaking was something to do with assembly, but likely the result of high rev. I don't typically get much above 3000 rpm on my 300TDI which has a tach and I don't recall having revved this 200 up either. Good news is I got the injector out of the other head which is fine and new seals and valve lapping being done by him. Also, in his opinion the other head is also salvageable.

Question: Valve seals in both heads were loose or floating and would easily slip back onto the guide but obviously not stay. One head had never been apart. Is this common or??
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1989ish 110 300tdi (Bella)
1988 LR90 ST 200tdi (Shorty)
1991 D130 200TDi (TBN)
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  #16  
Old July 18th, 2016, 12:31 PM
Naplm00
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Matthew
1983 110 200tdi 3 door soft top
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The valve seals on mine needed to be tapped into place with a socket and removed with a pair of pliers.

They were a green Viton type


200tdi
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  #17  
Old July 18th, 2016, 12:35 PM
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Trevor Griffiths
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Were those springs becoming coil bound?
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