63 Series IIA 109 PU Hybrid Electric - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old November 25th, 2012, 05:22 PM
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Smile 63 Series IIA 109 PU Hybrid Electric

I think it's a 66 anyway. I will find out once I get the info back from the heritage motor center. The odometer shows 44,141 miles which I believe to be authentic. EDIT: It's a 63

The plan is to combine two of my interests - a land rover hybrid and an EV conversion all into one, hence the hybrid hybrid title. I intend to use a 1994 RRC LWB for the chassis and running gear. I am not sure what I am doing for the drive line yet.

Here it is leaving ECR:
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It was a customer truck awaiting restoration I think at some point which never happened. Prior to them purchasing it, it was part of a collection of land rovers by someone in Maine who passed away which ECR bought. It has some signage on it that indicates it was used by a car dealer at some point - Davis Cadillac. It has a plow mount, hydraulic pump and controls and a rusted frame to show it was a plow truck for many years

Anyway, it's home now and I have given it a once over to assess what I have. The short version is it's pretty much what I expected - a mostly complete truck with a nice body and a rusted frame.

The long version...

It seems to have needed a clutch, but also had the thermostat revealed and the dash panel undone which makes one wonder. Perhaps it was starting to become a parts truck, but wasn't picked at much. But otherwise it's tough to tell what it's original demise was. The tags say 1991 so assume it has bee sitting for over 20 years.

Missing bits (although I don't necessarily care about them all)
  • hand crank
  • thermostat outlet pipe
  • clutch tower/pedal assembly and master cylinder
  • air cleaner
  • horn button
  • spare tire/rim
  • right rear axle shaft
  • tailgate, chain mounts and one of the anti-luce pins

Additional bits
  • Hydraulic pump, controls, and plow mount
  • Rats nest in radiator
  • some rusty diffs, one with broken teeth
  • Some plastic cutlery and rusty can opener and scissors
  • Liquid wrench, quick starting fluid, electrical tape
  • Wasp nest in one of the rear storage lockers

Pros
  • complete body other than the missing tailgate
  • bulkhead should be salvageable with some footwells
  • door frames mostly solid!
  • engine oil looks decent and turns over easily with hand crank
  • transfer case shifts through low/neutral/high easily
  • transmission shifts through gears easily, other than 3rd.
  • all wheels turn freely
  • driver seat base is adjustable!
  • headlights work

Cons
  • Rusty frame expected, but it's so rusty I can't use it for reference measurements.
  • no key
  • sills are a bit beat up
  • some odd body holes
  • right front fender has been tweaked and kinda straightened
  • roof has large hole in center (for antenna I assume)
  • right rear has had some work done on it
  • bumper a bit tweaked
  • tailgate edges seems to be compressed/beat in. Hopefully can rivet in replacements
  • some steel bits might not be salvageable, like seat box bottoms, steel inner fender pieces, brackets in front of rear tub
  • not sure how to confirm the condition of the transmission/transfer case since I may want to use them

I have started an album with a bunch of detailed pictures here:

http://galpin.phanfare.com/Series2AHybrid
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  #2  
Old November 25th, 2012, 05:47 PM
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No, need to coordinate with Bill. Didn't realize a driver shot was obligatory. Will get on it.

I need to make some room for another truck, or break this down first. I am still wondering if the whole body could be lifted and used to determine wheelbase changes and body mount positions etc on the new frame or if that's crazy talk. But I really don't have room for two trucks so at the least would need to do a quick separation of bodies and frames and end up with one of each after not too long.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 09:01 PM
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Charles,


Congrats! It looks perfect for what you are doing. A lot better than I was thinking it would be.

I looked through the pics and 66 is about right. No black 67 instrument panel, kodiak mk IV heater (save that one it is worth money as is the ashtray and the extra gauge), later vent levers, etc.

I don't see anything on the frame that would stop you from using it as a template (rusty but not broken it seems) but if you need it the green bible I believe has a diagram with all the measurements of a 109 chassis -- at least I have seen one and I think it is there. The rovers club site has the download.

There are a ton of mods needed to a RRC chassis to fit the series body, but I am sure you can figure it out.

As far as the transmission, I don't know how powerful the electric engine is, but I would be very concerned with a series trans lasting behind anything over 100hp. The t-case will be fine, but if bill is donating the newer t-case in the lwb it might be easier to use that or an LT230.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 09:24 PM
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Charlies, nice find and what a fun project. Just be sure to move it over to your new bay to put that HH installed beam to use. Thinking of lifting the whole shebang and rolling out the chassis? Lots of us around to help out.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 08:30 AM
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Ron, the forward side rear spring mounts are totally rusted away on one side and barely there on the other. The measurement from axle center to center one each side differs by over an inch (i don't have the numbers here). So that's why I am wary. I have seen the chassis diagrams and I am pretty sure they are in the green bible, but yes, I'll be using those. In an ideal world I'd keep the old chassis next to the new as a reference while I do the changes but I won't have the room without parking a care in the street. I guess not a big deal if I do it quickly enough.

Russell, that's what I was thinking - winch the whole thing up and down as needed to test fitment, but I'm told it's a bad idea so probably won't. But I plan to do that for the removal of the RRC body and engine.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 09:10 AM
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Please whatever you do don't lose that age developed patina!
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 01:45 PM
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I have thought about this but I doubt I'll leave it. It would be a ton of work to paint after the fact if you want the rivets to be unpainted (which I would). But also, I am not a fan of leaving the bulkhead and breakfast galvanized so I plan on painting it all.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
I have thought about this but I doubt I'll leave it. It would be a ton of work to paint after the fact if you want the rivets to be unpainted (which I would). But also, I am not a fan of leaving the bulkhead and breakfast galvanized so I plan on painting it all.
No! Man, I say touch up what you need to...you can make things look "weathered" with a rattle can. Leave the patina and the original text/etc on the doors and roof. Even if truck is a technicolor variety with a painted breakfast/bulkhead I say it'll look even better. Nothing worse than a freshly painted Series!
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
No! Man, I say touch up what you need to...you can make things look "weathered" with a rattle can. Leave the patina and the original text/etc on the doors and roof. Even if truck is a technicolor variety with a painted breakfast/bulkhead I say it'll look even better. Nothing worse than a freshly painted Series!
I feel like they came from the factory with patina, no other vehicle looks better as it ages than a series, its just like wine.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 03:53 PM
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But they didn't did they... I dunno, I'll sleep on it.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
As far as the transmission, I don't know how powerful the electric engine is, but I would be very concerned with a series trans lasting behind anything over 100hp. The t-case will be fine, but if bill is donating the newer t-case in the lwb it might be easier to use that or an LT230.
You are not the first to say this. What exactly are the failure point(s)? I don't plan on sizing the drivetrain to be a whole lot more than stock, but can't say how many HP yet. But I can tell you that shifting gears should happen less often than with a gas engine due to a larger power band on the electric.

Keeping the series transmission appeals to me because of 3 reasons right now.
  1. I have it
  2. I am half way to an adapter plate for that bellhousing
  3. I could keep the original tunnel and interior

Admittedly I'd like a synchro on all gears which an R380 would give me, but I don't think I'll need all 5 gears. Again too early to say without running the numbers for different motors. More is better though in terms of choices of gear of course. But the downside is this is a relatively expensive thing to source in good condition (an R380/LT230 combo).

Bill's truck has an ZF HP22 with Borg Warner transfer case afaik. Using the auto box is a possibility but has some negatives. First, you might have a lag on start up until the pump spools up as there is no idle (and I don't want the motor to idle even though I could). With some transmissions it will just be on startup, and hold pressure at lights etc. It's about 10% less efficient (or more) meaning less range or more batteries needed, and finally the shift points are likely to not match the motor's most efficient rpms.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 05:06 PM
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There seem to be a number of weak points. The SIIa box is not terrible. The SIII the second synchro goes. The idler bearing tends to go and they get noisey.

I am sure someone with direct experience will chime in, but the consensus is no go with anything more than 100hp or so.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:10 PM
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I'm not thrilled about the series gearbox, I wouldn't use it for what you are doing, get a 5 speed especially if you have the LWB.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 06:22 PM
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Ok, mr buzzkill (and the rest of ya), I hear you.

And here is the picture of me driving it, and one of me at work for good measure

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
Depending on what the motor requires you are looking at doing something custom anyway. The series transmission is a known weak point, so i would design that out of the equation.

-Jeff
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Old November 28th, 2012, 09:39 PM
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That's winter shop footwear. I started the teardown and took another driver shot for briggs.

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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:21 PM
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Dude you're not wasting any time...I'm thoroughly impressed.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:27 PM
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I just checked snail mail and got my letter from the Heritage Motor Centre. It turns out it's a 63 and was built 5 days after my 88". Freaky huh.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 11:20 PM
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From a Maine collection, was that one of Bill Vallerand's trucks? Looks like its gonna be cool. HP don't mean jack, torque is what kills boxes.I've heard 160 ft. lbs limit on the series box. The 3 liter GM engines I used to run were designed to produce about that. Hell, you can break those boxes with a 2.25. OTOH they fit and are easy to rebuild. And are fine for going slow.
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Old November 29th, 2012, 01:39 AM
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I just checked snail mail and got my letter from the Heritage Motor Centre. It turns out it's a 63 and was built 5 days after my 88". Freaky huh.
That's a goocher!
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Old November 29th, 2012, 02:20 AM
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That's a goocher!
I'm afraid to ask....
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