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  #21  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
I think a higher valved shock will help the scariness of it.

You have to also look at how the 3-link works and why they are really only run on the rear of the trucks. (except DIIs, why did they take it off?) I feel they work great in the rear because at high speed they effect of bumps and speed in the road drag past 3-link. In other words you are lifting the 3-link, tailing arm from the trailing arm side.

In the front you are doing the opposite, bumps are hitting the 3 link directly first then move past the radius arm.
Higher valved shocks dont make up for terrible suspension geometry... My fox shocks are valved pretty stiff.. I think they are originally valved for the rear of a D2 as I thought the same thing. It is a bit rough on the trail and still handled like shit going down the highway.

A triangulated 3 link works different than a regular 3 link as well. What makes a 3 link stable or scary is the gemotry, link length, placement and verticle separation. It works the same way if it's being pushed or pulled just like radius arms.
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  #22  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:59 PM
Oliver Whiting
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Defender, Disco and Rangie front suspension is basically a 3 link front end to begin with. The rear is a triangulated 3 link. Are you looking for more flex from the front axle? Easy to get more flex but handling at speed suffers.
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  #23  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Whiting View Post
Defender, Disco and Rangie front suspension is basically a 3 link front end to begin with. The rear is a triangulated 3 link. Are you looking for more flex from the front axle? Easy to get more flex but handling at speed suffers.
I thought the rear was closer to a triangulated 4 since the A frame attaches to both frame rails and meets at the axle. A three link rear would be two lowers and a single upper link.

Also, I didnt know radius arms made for a 3 link suspension?
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  #24  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:09 PM
Oliver Whiting
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Jeep set up with a track bar or panhard bar for the rover guys. Panhard controls side to side, radius arm to control rotation of the axle. Jeeps knock off of the defender front suspension.
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  #25  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
In the front you are doing the opposite, bumps are hitting the 3 link directly first then move past the radius arm.
So if I understand correctly, the radius arms can sort of behave like the lower links on 3 link if you removed the front of the two bolts holding the radius arm to the axle.

What is missing is something on the axle that prevents it from "wrapping" when it hits a bump. the front radius arm bolts play that role on the standard defender front suspension.

The panhard cannot play this role because it is in virtually the same plane as the axle.

I think see the problem with the 3 link front. Basically, the upper link controls pinion angle and therefore caster angle under suspension travel. If designed badly, the pinion angle can change drastically when cornering and braking.

I'm guessing that because the upper link is fixed in length, the longer it is, the better.
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  #26  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 10:18 PM
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Wait a second...why not just replace one of the radius arms with a 3 link style arm (one bolt at the axle housing) ?

Wouldn't the remaining radius arm prevent axle wrapping? Granted it would be taking additional stress, but it seems beefy enough to take it...

N/m...I see that d90 already did this experiment years ago. 5" more on the ramp.
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  #27  
Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
So if I understand correctly, the radius arms can sort of behave like the lower links on 3 link if you removed the front of the two bolts holding the radius arm to the axle.

What is missing is something on the axle that prevents it from "wrapping" when it hits a bump. the front radius arm bolts play that role on the standard defender front suspension.

The panhard cannot play this role because it is in virtually the same plane as the axle.

I think see the problem with the 3 link front. Basically, the upper link controls pinion angle and therefore caster angle under suspension travel. If designed badly, the pinion angle can change drastically when cornering and braking.

I'm guessing that because the upper link is fixed in length, the longer it is, the better.
axle wrap can be minimized if the links are placed properly...

------ Follow up post added January 3rd, 2013 10:12 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Whiting View Post
Defender, Disco and Rangie front suspension is basically a 3 link front end to begin with. The rear is a triangulated 3 link. Are you looking for more flex from the front axle? Easy to get more flex but handling at speed suffers.
Yea and Land Rover rims are beadlocks
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  #28  
Old January 4th, 2013, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Wait a second...why not just replace one of the radius arms with a 3 link style arm (one bolt at the axle housing) ?

Wouldn't the remaining radius arm prevent axle wrapping? Granted it would be taking additional stress, but it seems beefy enough to take it...

N/m...I see that d90 already did this experiment years ago. 5" more on the ramp.
If you just did one arm you would have a 2.5 link.

The unlinked arm would prevent it from wrapping and also flexing at all.

Best thing is so set the pinion angle slightly less than 3 degrees which is where the pinion angle is set normally... least I think. I've been drinking.
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  #29  
Old January 4th, 2013, 06:29 AM
sammyboyv8
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Hi folks, thanks forall your input, much appreciated. Yeah, its more axle travel I'm after but i want a fluid movement instead of having to crash and bang over things!!
I've got a few ideas in mind its always nice to see other peoples work before jumping inat the deep end though!

EDIT: I must add, this vehicle when built will be trailered to all competitions so on road performence doesnt matter, its purely just to gain more and better articulation.

Cheers

Sam
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  #30  
Old January 4th, 2013, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Whiting View Post
Jeep set up with a track bar or panhard bar for the rover guys. Panhard controls side to side, radius arm to control rotation of the axle. Jeeps knock off of the defender front suspension.
Problem with radius arm suspensions is that they turn the axle housing into a sway bar. As the suspension cycles, the housing is twisted.

If youre looking for a little more flex, why not try Johnny Joints where the radius arm meets the frame to give a little more movement? Ive also ridden in a truck with wristed arms and found them to work pretty well. Gave the axle a little more movement. Still not ideal but not too bad.
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  #31  
Old January 4th, 2013, 08:33 AM
Oliver Whiting
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You can fabricate front radius arms with a different frame end joint like johnny joint to free up the range of motion. Problem with a three link is you need some form of triangulation or a panhard bar to locate the axle from side to side. There are basic fabricator 3 link and 4 link kits available that could be adapted to fit a land rover.

If it is a trail rig the johnny joint would work pretty well, it is hard connection so a lot of road noise is transmitted into the passenger compartment. Most of the kits available locate the joint on the axle and use poly or rubber busing at the frame connection to dampen the transfer to some extent.
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  #32  
Old January 4th, 2013, 09:16 AM
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I was going to use rose jointed radius arms on all 3 links to aid movement and reduce binding, the noise and comfort isnt an issue as its strictly an off roader and will be trailered to and from events.

Any thoughts on this?

Sam
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  #33  
Old January 4th, 2013, 09:51 AM
Oliver Whiting
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If it is for off road performance and flex they are great. We have an issue with dust and dirt getting into the joints and they seem to wear quite quickly. Johnny and Jimmy joints are rebuildable.
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  #34  
Old January 4th, 2013, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Whiting View Post
If it is for off road performance and flex they are great. We have an issue with dust and dirt getting into the joints and they seem to wear quite quickly. Johnny and Jimmy joints are rebuildable.
Excuse the saft question but what is a johny joint?!

The mud over here will probably make them where quite quickly but they are quite cheap so I'm not to worried about them wearing really.

Sam
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  #35  
Old January 4th, 2013, 09:55 AM
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Out of curiosity, how does changing the joint at the frame increase flex/articulation?

Aren't the front bushings in the radius arm the only things that allow the Defender's front to articulate?

------ Follow up post added January 4th, 2013 09:58 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyboyv8 View Post
Ejohny joint?!
It's slang for a beefy, rebuildable, high misalignment spherical joint manufactured by Currie.

------ Follow up post added January 4th, 2013 10:02 AM ------

[QUOTE=ini88;401321The unlinked arm would prevent it from wrapping and also flexing at all.[/QUOTE]

http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.p...1&d=1285606558

I think...and I don't know, because I'm armchairing this...but isn't this the theory behind superflex radius arms?
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  #36  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:26 AM
Oliver Whiting
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I think a johnny, jimmy, currie joint, rose joint at the frame end of the front radius arm would free up the land rover front end vs the factory bushing don't you? The factory bushings limit the drop of the front axle same with the rear trailing arm frame end bushing. The factory bushings do limit the travel and provide a small level of anti roll.

Rovertym uses a johnny jointed rear trailing arm to increase travel same should work for the front axle and I think rovertym did those at one time.

Attached pic shows what appears to be a front radius arm with a different joint than factory

Link has a list of several joint types

http://www.therangerstation.com/Maga...008/joints.htm
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  #37  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:34 AM
Oliver Whiting
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Sam,

On another note, drove through your part of the country a few years ago. Very nice!
Since you are so close to Solihul can we get you to sneak over and take some spy photos of new rovers
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  #38  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:36 AM
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Those are a good idea and i should imagine they would work well compared toa standard radius arm.

The currie joint looks to be what we call a rose joint,I'm using those both ends of every link to eliminate any binding of bushes, I'm aiming for the front to be able to move as freely as possible with just the springs and shockers left to do there job.

I've had a few good ideas and everybodies input on here with pro's and cons has been very helpful indeed, thanks all, much appreciated.

I'llget some pictures up of the back end over the weekend for those interested, i can lift (with the springs removed) the rear axle up and down to its maximum travel with no binding at all, I'm very pleased with how it turned out and I'm aiming to get the same from the front end too.

Cheers,

Sam.
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  #39  
Old January 4th, 2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Whiting View Post
If it is for off road performance and flex they are great. We have an issue with dust and dirt getting into the joints and they seem to wear quite quickly. Johnny and Jimmy joints are rebuildable.
Rose (or spherical bearing) joints will wear out fast, the teflon (PTFE) liners don't like mud & grit.
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  #40  
Old January 4th, 2013, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyboyv8 View Post
The currie joint looks to be what we call a rose joint,I'm using those both ends of every link to eliminate any binding of bushes
Erm... nope, not the same.... currie/johnny joints have the swivel ball encased in a polymer housing. That's how they reduce the vibration compared to rose or spherical bearings that have a thin layer of teflon (PTFE) on the inside of the outer race. As noted above true spherical bearings will wear fast & rattle.

You really need to do more searching, Giggle Pin 4x4 has a D90 with extended radius arms on the front for improved flex, you could also use some of of the X-Eng 'X-Flex' joints to make some arms.... but I'd give Simon a call first to check that the'll be within spec for front use.

I'd suggest that you join the Devon 4x4 forum, lots of the top UK challenge guys hang out there & they have 'been there & done that' for just about every possible option in LR suspension. They have also driven it hard in UK & European events... know what does & doesn't work.... think lots of mud !
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