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  #1  
Old November 22nd, 2005, 11:11 PM
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Why not Portals?

I've been doing a fair bit of reading the last couple weeks on various conversions that can be done to the diffs on land rovers to beef them up. I know the most common option is ARBs with GBR axles or the like. I guess as far as more custom modifications go the next in line is the toyota e locker from a tacoma out back and a high pinion cruiser diff in the front. What I am wondering is why not go the portal route. Volvo C303 axles have a very similar width and the rims are backspaced as such you really wouldn't see much of a difference. In addition the driveshafts should mate pretty well with a spacer and the diffs are on the correct side. Over on pirate a guy did this (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398873 ) to a LC and it looks fairly straightforward. I pmed him and he said he spent around 4500 total with wheels. The cost of ARBs, compressor, and strengthened axles is at least 3000 probably more like 3500. It seems you get all the advantages of that setup with the added benefit of 5" more clearance. I know you need to run at least a 37 to get the right rpm and speed but should be fine at 70 with that combo. At any rate, I'm sure Im not the first to dream about this on the forum so curious why people have stayed away from it or what the perceived drawbacks are?
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  #2  
Old November 22nd, 2005, 11:34 PM
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From what I understand, it's a lot more expensive than 4500. If I'm not mistaken, it's about double that for front and rear. One of the threads here (or was it discoweb) show a Series truck on portals. A lot of aussie folks do it on their rovers too. Search the forum, this was talked about a few times. Goodluck.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 11:53 PM
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Costs more then that unless you can do the fab work yourself. Not sure how the highway ride is, I don't hear about many that go faster then 55mph. On a D-90 the biggest tire size you want to run is about 37-38, if you want bigger you need to extend the wheel base to keep things stable and optimized. Unless you spend $$$$$ you are going to be stuck with drum breaks and the wierd bolt pattern (yeah rovers have a weird one too). I think you need bigger then 37s to get back in the same rpm range. Rearly do parts break on them but if they do then you won't be swapping parts with your buddy!

But I would LOVE to go Portals!
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 11:59 PM
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Lots of people have done C303 portals on Rovers. I know of a few in Australia and it is very popular in northern Europe. It is fairly straightforward. The only complicated mod is to get the front pinion angle correct which is needed for the road. They are getting pretty hard to find though. If you can find a decent set cheap, go for it.

If you have the money, these guys have developed a complete new portal based on the C303 design with many improvements. Just costs a bit, $8900 for a pair.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 12:40 AM
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for every inch up go out one. The ride of a Unimog is pretty comfortable, although loud. The c303 are the simplest. you could use mog axles but this would require extra modification and 38-40inch tires. the portal design creates huge amounts of axle wrap, so using the stock control arms helps. Also beef up the frame where you attach them.These axles also come with lockers. the most common breakage is at the geared hub so carry an extra. If you do go with a larger tire a ram stearing setup will help you move those tires, this also puts less strain on the frame as the ram ataches to the axle, the plumbing is pretty easy. you might also have clearance issues with the bottom of your motor. Portals are really cool, but for the money grab a 14bolt rear and Dana60 front. Not portals but they are really tuff and easy to get parts for.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 02:11 AM
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A portal axle in my opinion is just about the coolest thing you could do, if it is done right. Keep in mind that this will have all the problems of a normal axle swap, and then some. If you source the axles and do a very good job, and then do all the work yourself, $4500 is possible. But, if you have not done anything like this before and want it to be streetable, be prepared for a big learning curve. Steering and pinion angles are more complicated and harder to get right than you would think. The stock radius arm will handle the extra leverage. No, you won't have clearance issues with the oil pan. Also, if you want to go bigger than 37's then you should stretch the wheel base and beef up the internals of the portals. They start to fail over 37, if you are beating on them hard. They are a great option, and infinitely smarter than throwing money into the stock axles. I really hope the polishing the rover turd trend is on it's way out.

Oh, and the portal tech option is really frekin cool. At that price, they come mostly complete with any bot pattern and width. But, to get the beef, you have to spend more, so that gets extremely expensive then.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 12:24 PM
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Good to see so much conversation about this, I agree with David that trying to mess with the rover axles just seems like you're not thoroughly addressing the weak design in general. I got a quote from a guy in colorado for a matching set for front and rear for 4000. Wheels would run around 125 or so. I think a tall narrow 38 like an xzl or swamper might do alright and the rims are decent enough where I woulnd't mind running them in place of wolf rims. As far as the drum brakes go I realize the drawbacks but fact is drums are terrible when wet and muddy and I don't get much rain and thats just the price you pay i see it. Then again they were designed to stop a full loaded military vehicle weighing much more than a D90. I was already planning on eventually beefing up the rear trailing arms and replacing the front with a 3 link. Setting up the pinion probably is the biggest challenge but I have read it is not as difficult as some other swaps. Otherwise all I would want is the same overall rover design with beefed up mounts on the axles and frame. At the end of the day 4.11 gears, lockers, compressor, and axles is about 4000 without any cost allowed for installation. 5 of us should do it and drive down costs!
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 12:46 PM
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Just a rear quick FYI statement. Drum brakes work just as well as disk in all driving conditions. Sometimes a swear they work better but that is just in my mind. The setbacks are simply the weight and the difficulty of maintenance. As to the pinion. It is not that hard. You'll find a lot of time spent on the steering and measurements. Don't forget to stretch the wheelbase at 38's. When you get to the 38-40 size I believe you want a 100 to 108 wheelbase.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 01:32 PM
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Lots of information on Outerlimits, have a look around . That thread discusses the pinion angle mods required for the front. Unfortunately pictures are all missing as the baord was hacked an dthey were all lost in the rebuild,

Another good thread here, look around for more
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 01:32 PM
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Are you pretty serious about this Christian?
I've been looking for a new project myself. I've been thinking hard about doing some drivetrain upgrades, but haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet because I wasn't completely happy with what I would end up with. This sounds like fun, and it would be nice to do at the same time as someone else for troubleshooting purposes.

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Old November 23rd, 2005, 06:52 PM
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It certainly seems like a good idea at some point. More than likely I won't do it anytime during the winter and likely not till mid spring would I be in a position to afford them or have the time to play with them. In all seriousness though it seems fairly straightforward in that most everything is retained as far as mountings go and I think the real challenge is linking the steering. It seems like the best thing to do is plan and plan and plan again well in advance. I think thats what I would spend the next couple months doing is studying other installs and also measuring everything perfectly. I am by no means a fabricator so that would run extra but have a buddy who works for a race car shop who is proficient. Again for about 4k in axles and if all the right planning were done I think you could keep other costs way down. And if someone were so inclined they could design the thing as a test run and model the parts for others at a price. This seems like way too good an idea not to be tested especially with how much is out there about toyota diffs or how to beef up rover parts which ends up near the same cost.

Follow-up Post:

Anyone up for a group buy? Haha

http://www.gon2far.co.uk/index.php?do=1_portals.html

From the site:
Volvo portal axles are easily adaptable to both coil and leaf sprung Land Rovers. They are fitted as standard with 1310 drive flanges which means that your standard Land Rover prop shaft or your GON2FAR custom prop shaft will bolt straight up with no modification. The diffs are even the same length as Land Rover diffs so there are no length issues with the prop shafts either. Having been originally designed for a leaf sprung application these axles are, virtually a straight bolt on option for series Land Rovers. For coil sprung applications new brackets will need to be welded to the axles to accept the radius rods etc.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 08:56 PM
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Out of curiousity how road worthy are portals? What would be the top sustainanle speed one could run for long periods of time - 70mph, 80mph, slower faster?

How many per year could you put on these things before needing a rebuild? 15K per year - 25K per year.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 09:37 PM
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4 wheel drums are awful. I had four wheel drums on a CJ7 with 32"s. They could hardly stop the truck. If you went through enough water to get the drums wet it was Flintstone time.

Disc brake cool much better and won't experience as much fade when used at length, operate better when wet and weight less than drums. To me four wheel drums = no/limited highway use. If portals are the plan for a highway / DD rig pony up the money for discs.

Extended highway would also be an issue with some portal axles as some do not use bearings but bushings. Someone who knows more about C303 and Mog specs could better shed some light on what is what.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 11:21 PM
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I got this from the guy who did the LC build on pirate:
"As for the road speed I was running 2550 rpm at 60 mph, 2700 rpm at 65 mph, and 2900 rpm at 70. I'm very pleased with how it handles"
That was with running 38.5" boggers

I havent found any direct info yet on longevity and wear but I would imagine being designed for heavy duty use they probably don't need rebuilding often. I have read mostly they just need new cv boots and the brakes checked.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe P
Out of curiousity how road worthy are portals?
A mate here fitted Volvo portals to his 90 last year (or before?anyway he was the 1st in Italy I think)
and he's getting a lorry driving license so to trailer it behind the Disco for trips longer than 250Kms.
Top (reasonable)speed = 100Kms/h on the motorway.

35" 'pedes fitted.

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Old November 24th, 2005, 03:40 PM
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The speed issue seems to be the real big drawback on these axles especially for those of us who use our trucks for more than rock crawling or as trailered vehicles. I do enough highway driving where I'd like to be able to take a 300 mile trip and cruise at about 65-70. I am still trying to find some info regarding the ability of these axles to run that way for a prolonged period. Probably beating a dead horse since very few probably care about this but for curiosity sake here are some links....
http://www.jonfund.com/technical/roverportals.shtml
http://www.geocities.com/landyshah/adik.html
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=1823&st=20 especially page 7 with the pictures

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old November 25th, 2005, 12:02 AM
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I care plenty Christian, thanks for the links! I've spent a good part of the day exploring similar places. The more I've read, the better I like the idea. You mentioned a place in Colorado that had Volvo C303 portals, would that by any chance be XtremeVehicles? I stumbled across them in my search. Hell, they're on my way home from work. I'll definately stop in and have a look at what they have. I'd never seen a C303 before, that's a sweet looking rig! If I nail a couple axle assemblies I'll keep you up to date on what I run into. I don't do planning very well if I don't have something infront of me to look at, measure, what not.

Dave on 37's--I'd love to hear any ideas you might have suspension-wise. I respect the general direction you take in reguards to suspension. It seems like many of the people installing portals are also installing 3-links, and I wonder if that's because it's the best way to fight axle wrap forces in the front, or if they are just 3-link people? Any ideas you might have would be great to hear. It seems like differences with issues like where the tires would be at full stuff would be very advantagous and might change the way things are set up. The steering geometry is going to take some looking at, and I'm wondering if the wheelbase should be stretched a bit on account of the 4-5" lift created?

If I go ahead with this project it would surely be over my head, but what would be the point in taking it on if it wasn't?

Any advice out there?

Thanks,
Rod
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Old November 25th, 2005, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Hayward
I care plenty Christian, thanks for the links! I've spent a good part of the day exploring similar places. The more I've read, the better I like the idea. You mentioned a place in Colorado that had Volvo C303 portals, would that by any chance be XtremeVehicles? I stumbled across them in my search. Hell, they're on my way home from work. I'll definately stop in and have a look at what they have. I'd never seen a C303 before, that's a sweet looking rig! If I nail a couple axle assemblies I'll keep you up to date on what I run into. I don't do planning very well if I don't have something infront of me to look at, measure, what not.

Dave on 37's--I'd love to hear any ideas you might have suspension-wise. I respect the general direction you take in reguards to suspension. It seems like many of the people installing portals are also installing 3-links, and I wonder if that's because it's the best way to fight axle wrap forces in the front, or if they are just 3-link people? Any ideas you might have would be great to hear. It seems like differences with issues like where the tires would be at full stuff would be very advantagous and might change the way things are set up. The steering geometry is going to take some looking at, and I'm wondering if the wheelbase should be stretched a bit on account of the 4-5" lift created?

If I go ahead with this project it would surely be over my head, but what would be the point in taking it on if it wasn't?

Any advice out there?

Thanks,
Rod
Hey,

Since my counsel has been requested, you should know that my fee is $100 per hour. I have been thinking about this for the last 12 hours so please cut me a check for $1200 right away. Anyway, to be serious, this was the one regret that I have had building my truck. I should have gone portals. Anyway, to late for that. Heres some things that you have to consider. Making this road driven truck will be difficult. If you want to keep the RPM's in decent range you are going to have to run 39in tires (or so). Now this leads to a whole other host of issues. One being the wheelbase. If you wish to keep the stock 92.9 wb the 39's in my opinion are going to be too much. Now, as you do the swap, you need to move the front axle foreword 1.5in to keep the tire off the bulkhead. It has to be 1.5, any more and you have to cut a lot off the front end, any less and the tire will rub on the bottom of the firewall. In the rear, to keep the tire off your sliders, you have to move about 2in rear. You will need to drop your flares and cut a good amount but if you do it well, you can keep the same lines as the original wheelwell. Now your sitting at 96.4 wb. Trouble is, I would never run 39s on less than 100. But thats just my opinion. Not worth very much.

Okay, on to suspension. In the rear, it is easy. You can simply extend the upper and lower links. In the front, I know I am going to get crap about this. I would NOT do a three link. In that design, there is roughly 6 times the force put on the middle link. Then add in the leveraging effect of the portal and you are asking that middle link to accept tremendous amounts of force. Can it work? Of course, but I would never trust it to the SG set up. If I were doing this, I would do a 4 link up front OR what I have done. I have attached pictures of some of my new project. I have been changing a lot of things that I was not happy about from the last build. Anyway, this is the rear of my radius arms. I have taken the arm and extended the overall lenth by 8in and used a 1.25 hiem (way overkill, but big is cool). Now, I moved my front foreword 3in with this setup. More than I needed but I was trying to fit hi-steer rear arms in front of my oil pan. They didn't fit still But hey, live and learn. Anyway, if you combine this with the modified radius end that I have posted here before, you get just under 16in of un-interupted travel up front. Plus, the simplicity, strenth, and road manners of a radius arm suspension. Plus, it's not too much money.

Steering geometry, I have no idea. Have fun with that! (I heard it is pretty straight foreword.)

Final thoughts. If this was a trailered only vehicle, then you could just slap 37's on there and be done with it. Who cares about the gearing. I find that eventually, anyone who likes to hit it hard and push the limits will eventually trailer. I fought it for a long time and now I am not even road legal anymore. Also, keep in mind that a lot of people talk about how these axles are only good to 37in tires. Now, keep in mind that a lot of these guys are comp guys so they are pushing these to the max. And, the new 39.5 Iroks weighs less than a 37in MT/R. Food for thought. Oh, and please do this and take pictures!!!!
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Old November 25th, 2005, 03:14 PM
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Alas I think the pipe dream is dead for me, I just drive my vehicle too much to be able to trailer it. Even if I went up to the 39s and stretched the wheelbase I fear it may be too much hacking to justify driving the thing 5 days a week 80 or 100 miles. I would love to make the thing a more capable vehicle but not to the point where its hardly a rover anymore, especially one I can enjoy on a day to day basis. The real crap part of it is I don't know how I'll be able to justify dropping around 2k in arb air lockers into the thing knowing those volvos are out there. Is there any way to have custom gears cut that would change the gearing enough to run a more realistic 36/37??

Oh, Rod, the place was xtremevehicles.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 03:21 PM
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