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  #1  
Old May 24th, 2014, 02:55 PM
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Brian Kandefer
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What are your thoughts????

Ok, some ppl know me and many don't! I build custom cages for locals and I have branching out lately. Recently I found out that one of the venders on the forum was doing some work to one of my customers/buddies truck, he sent some pics of the updated progress for him to check out when he noticed that his new custom car from me was not on his truck???? When asked he blantanly said that he liked the cage ALOT and that he was changing some of the hardware and while it was off was going to COPY the cage. All of this was done with out his permission or knowledge of the owner, so my question to the community is how I should handle this?? I talked to my buddy and he was pretty upset about it but what could he do? He has his truck and just wants to get it back. All my cages are designed from images that my customers find that they like, and then I spend my time making my own brackets/hardware and assembly. I don't have patents on my designs but I am working on the development of a couple new products. I reached out to this vendor and asked for him to contact me before I release his name on the forum. I just wanted to see reactions to this, along with possible scenarios for me to pursue, I am way to busy but this is weighing on me bc I intentionally stay away from products that I know others make, and if you know me or done business with me you know I point ppl I the direction of others to spread the wealth. It's called karma, and I want to see what this community thinks?
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  #2  
Old May 24th, 2014, 03:03 PM
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If it is exactly as you say I would be outraged and on site asap to collect my property and stop his copy. It isn't his property to copy and IMO pretty low to do such a thing without permission.
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  #3  
Old May 24th, 2014, 03:12 PM
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Brian Kandefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Larson View Post
If it is exactly as you say I would be outraged and on site asap to collect my property and stop his copy. It isn't his property to copy and IMO pretty low to do such a thing without permission.
I have the emails where he says exactly what I stated when my buddy asked him where his cage was! The best part is that I have posted several pics of the truck with the cage on the forum for the past I don't know eight months to a year?
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  #4  
Old May 24th, 2014, 03:18 PM
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For full disclosure... It's not me!!

I think you did the right thing by approaching the vendor.
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  #5  
Old May 24th, 2014, 03:26 PM
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I would love to know who since I would be royally pissed if somebody took something apart that wasn't part of the work I hired them to do, especially without asking me!
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  #6  
Old May 24th, 2014, 03:41 PM
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Defender owners in North America are part of one of the smallest communities out there. Why would somebody think they could get away with doing something like this? I hope it is a huge misunderstanding and nothing else.
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  #7  
Old May 24th, 2014, 03:41 PM
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Brian Kandefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
So this other vendor removed the cage from a customer's (your buddy's) truck in order to copy it? And is doing so without the customers permission? Removing it crosses the line in my mind. Simply throwing a protractor and a tape on it while its in place isn't that big of a deal in my mind. Its just tubing. -Jeff
using an image as a resource and developing your own I have no issue with, straight taking someone else's design off a vehicle without their knowledge is something else. How it was done, and I have a lot of time and money tied up into my hardware and couplers that I designed, for someone to pull them off and directly copy them.

------ Follow up post added May 24th, 2014 03:42 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Defender owners in North America are part of one of the smallest communities out there. Why would somebody think they could get away with doing something like this? I hope it is a huge misunderstanding and nothing else.
waiting to hear from him, but I'm pretty sure it's cut and dry. Just all depends on how he wants to handle it!
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  #8  
Old May 24th, 2014, 04:03 PM
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I am Not a Lawyer... but I am not sure a roll cage design is a copyright... which is all you have to go on right now. So while it might suck if you want to make some money off of this kind of thing, I am not sure you have standing to do anything.

Now... the guy taking the cage off of the truck without discussing it with the owner is a whole different problem, but you are not party to that problem.
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  #9  
Old May 24th, 2014, 04:21 PM
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I think you did the right thing reaching out to the vendor first. See if he'll make it right first. (I doubt it, but at least you maintain the moral high ground.) If you're still not satisfied, I'd post a copy of the email and try public shaming!! This is a small community, a community of defender blood brothers as I like to call it. I wouldn't do business with someone who did that to my product OR my truck while it was in for service. I'd want to know.
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  #10  
Old May 24th, 2014, 04:23 PM
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Will Hedrick
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Permission should have been requested from the customer at a minimum. Anything outside the scope of the original work order could be construed as grounds for a breach of the vendor's duty. Replacing hardware isn't a valid excuse in the event the customer did not want the hardware replaced. I certainly wouldn't want anybody touching something on my truck without my authorization to do so.

Bottom line, the vendor's actions do not constitute a gentlemanly course of conduct, and as a result, it appears he or she has now submitted themselves to be judged in the court of public opinion.
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  #11  
Old May 24th, 2014, 05:41 PM
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Hi All

I think there is a good chance I am the vendor in question but no one has reached out to me yet.... I even looked though mails quite a bit just now to see if anything was missed.

No one should yet get their panties in a wad until Brian and I talk. The community is tiny for sure so give us a chance to discuss prior to forming opinions.

And then again, this is not fully the scenario on my end so maybe it is not me


PM sent


We just talked.... the details, once explained, cleared the air and all is good.


Nothing to see here....move along
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  #12  
Old May 24th, 2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlcruiser View Post
We just talked.... the details, once explained, cleared the air and all is good.


Nothing to see here....move along
But I have already grabbed my pitchfork and lit my torch. What am going to do with them now?
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  #13  
Old May 24th, 2014, 07:35 PM
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But I have already grabbed my pitchfork and lit my torch. What am going to do with them now?
Head to the White House and demand that CBP quits confiscating Defenders!
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  #14  
Old May 24th, 2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Head to the White House and demand that CBP quits confiscating Defenders!
Ah- good one!
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  #15  
Old May 24th, 2014, 08:42 PM
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Brian Kandefer
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Spoke with Dave, said he was gonna give me a Salisbury front end! Long story short I have not protected myself or my products and that will change with my new products. Whether or not he copied my cage doesn't matter we are both moving on and most important we both learned from the situation. Time to put out the torches and put up the pitch forks and grab a beer and enjoy the rest of the holiday weekend.
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  #16  
Old May 24th, 2014, 09:36 PM
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I love happy endings
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  #17  
Old May 24th, 2014, 09:55 PM
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  #18  
Old May 24th, 2014, 10:05 PM
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Good work guys!
After all the discourse involving vendors/members I've seen, it's great to see this worked out in a gentlemanly fashion. People, take note on this....

Now THAT'S how you debate!!!! (Quote from Old School...in case anyone is wondering)
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  #19  
Old May 24th, 2014, 11:05 PM
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I seem to recall you at least asking me for my CAD drawings of my racks and crossbars. To which I politely refused.

I'd like to think I have tacit copyright on my racks and crossbars, as the Rover community is based on a small brotherhood. I just hope no one decides the have a need to fill the tiny demand for these niche products while I am deployed for another two years.

And no, just because you build a cage or a rack, doesn't inherently give it a copyright.

If you want a patent or copyright, you better be ready to defend it and have the liability insurance to back it up too.
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  #20  
Old May 24th, 2014, 11:32 PM
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Brian Kandefer
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To be 100% transparent I have never and will never directly copy or reproduce another product that is in CURRENT production bc there is enough business out there to make money. To this day I have passed on several roof rack builds out of respect for you and Jeff, I have yet to make one! There is a big difference between taking an image and developing a version and directly coping another companies product! Anyone that knows me will vouch, for that!!! FYI I don't own a computer so your CAD software wouldn't do me any good!! I use white boards, legal pads and string
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