veterans - Page 2 - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old November 13th, 2010, 06:29 PM
o2batsea's Avatar
o2batsea
Status: Online
Bill Adams
66 109 sw 94 lwb
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: kensington md
Posts: 6,498
Registry
Being a soldier/airman/marine/sailor isn't about being a policy wonk. There are as many reasons to join as there are those who serve. If you gave a damn about policy you'd have voted with your feet and walked right on by the recruitment office. If you did it as a business decision in order to get through school, then you got what you wanted and didn't get your dick shot off. Bonus. I think you're being a bit of a sourpuss saying that you had a shit time in the military. I bet that there are times that you really miss it. In fact I bet you still need someone to tell you when to put your socks on.
"Got out ASAP after I came to the realization that I was cannon fodder for a government that wants to play world policeman."
You're pretty stupid if you didn't know that going in.
__________________
Bill Adams

1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #22  
Old November 13th, 2010, 07:54 PM
michael67's Avatar
michael67
Status: Offline
Michael White
110 Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC View Post
Hey, its OK. Not even every one of us in the military agrees with every policy or use of military force, or even the fact that we spend a huge amount of our GDP on our military industrial complex.

I guess all the stuff about leadership, discipline, duty and all that amounts to nothing if armed forces are committed to conflicts you don't agree with.

I'm a cynical guy, but bamn, even I'm not so cynical as to believe that great officers, NCO, and soldiers don't bring a great deal back to their country, communities, and families.
The military does offer good college benefits, or at least used to, to the few who actually leave the military. Most get lazy and stay in. Or, more recently, are forced to stay in.

I can't see how a job shooting people would be useful in something productive, like an engineering company or manufacturing. The skills they return with seem to just feed into more government jobs; the ones that come back in one piece, anyway. The rest (such as the legless veteran who panhandles a few miles from here) are often a burden to their family and to tax payers for the rest of their lives, many with no hope of future relationships. After all, how many women find a colostomy bag sexy?

------ Follow up post added November 13th, 2010 07:05 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFD View Post
not at all, but war is a serious matter and, from outside, we generally get the feeling that the huge majority of us citizen backup the war so seeing a vet dissentient is imo unusual.
I think many Americans just don't care. There's no draft, the economy is certainly helping fill the troop ranks, and the government is printing money like mad to avoid raising taxes. If you ask many Americans about Iraq or Afghanistan, and why Americans are being killed and mutilated over there, and why many more Afghanis and Iraqis (including women and children) are being killed by American actions there, it will invoke an over-emotional response that exposes their ignorance or an "I don't care" responses that exposes their apathy.

I just try to pay attention.
__________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the
black flag and start slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old November 13th, 2010, 08:07 PM
o2batsea's Avatar
o2batsea
Status: Online
Bill Adams
66 109 sw 94 lwb
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: kensington md
Posts: 6,498
Registry
Dude I have no problem with my tax money supporting someone who gave their legs inservice to their country
You do not speak as one who served in the military and I am beginning to think you are telling fibs.
__________________
Bill Adams

1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #24  
Old November 13th, 2010, 08:20 PM
michael67's Avatar
michael67
Status: Offline
Michael White
110 Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Being a soldier/airman/marine/sailor isn't about being a policy wonk. There are as many reasons to join as there are those who serve. If you gave a damn about policy you'd have voted with your feet and walked right on by the recruitment office. If you did it as a business decision in order to get through school, then you got what you wanted and didn't get your dick shot off. Bonus. I think you're being a bit of a sourpuss saying that you had a shit time in the military. I bet that there are times that you really miss it. In fact I bet you still need someone to tell you when to put your socks on.
"Got out ASAP after I came to the realization that I was cannon fodder for a government that wants to play world policeman."
You're pretty stupid if you didn't know that going in.
Yes, I was naive and 17 when I joined. And I actually believed government was put in place to protect people's rights and property, not as something used to steal, murder, and coerce. Naive and probably a bit stupid - I blame my parents a bit, and the government school I was sent to nine months a year for 13 years even more. I've tried to correct my stupidity and naivety, and will spend my entire life doing so. And I am quite grateful I got out with all the pieces I joined with - I've met ones who didn't.

And I never said all the times were bad; a few were actually fun, but I certainly do not "miss" them. And I'd never do it again, nor recommend it to anyone, especially in this time when it's obvious you will be sent as a mercenary to fight someone who just wants you to go the f**k home and leave them alone.

Not quite sure about the sock comment there - if you think I need someone to tell me when to do stuff, I think you've posted to the wrong web site. Anyone who owns a Defender or other off road vehicle is going to have to have a bit of common sense, or else be squished under the weight of his car (12 un-squished years and counting!).

------ Follow up post added November 13th, 2010 07:25 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Dude I have no problem with my tax money supporting someone who gave their legs inservice to their country
You do not speak as one who served in the military and I am beginning to think you are telling fibs.
"Dude", I'd be willing to bet he'd rather have his legs than your tax money. Many soldiers come back in pieces, but still alive. I can't really support that. After all, a veteran sent him there....

As for me, six years National Guard/Reserve. Yeah, a weekend warrior.
__________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the
black flag and start slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old November 14th, 2010, 12:39 AM
JimC's Avatar
JimC
Status: Offline
Jim Cheney
NAS 110 #145
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 7,154
Registry
We're arguing at the wrong end of the spectrum here. I have no problem taking thanks from someone for serving (and you shouldn't either Michael) because by joining the military you've already set yourself apart from a large group of people who stay home, don't know whats going on in the world, and probably can't even be bothered to vote.

The exact same thing can be said of your opinions, they're only relevant in the context of a society that is already one fo the most successful and dynamic in history. The government is there to protect your rights and property, and even if they don't do it perfectly all the time, they do it a lot better than every other country in the world and better than every other society in history.
__________________
Jim Cheney

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old November 14th, 2010, 10:02 AM
Ray_G's Avatar
Ray_G
Status: Offline
Ray Gerber
54 S1 86", 96 D1 (Coyote), 06 D3
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NoVA
Posts: 2,636
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael67 View Post
Most get lazy and stay in. Or, more recently, are forced to stay in.

I can't see how a job shooting people would be useful in something productive, like an engineering company or manufacturing. The skills they return with seem to just feed into more government jobs; the ones that come back in one piece, anyway. The rest (such as the legless veteran who panhandles a few miles from here) are often a burden to their family and to tax payers for the rest of their lives, many with no hope of future relationships. After all, how many women find a colostomy bag sexy?

I've stayed out of this for the most part since I'm busy (working at capacity since, according to this post the 14 years I've got in are due to personal laziness) deployed at this time, where I'll be for ~6 more months being an agent of American influence I suppose.

If this were a forum like Dweb, and not as polite as D-90 typically is, I'd call you a d-bag. As it is I'll simply tell you that while you deserve respect for your service you don't have mine b/c of the way you portray those that have served before you, those that served with you, and those beside me serving now.

That's your right though. Hope you enjoy the cold comfort of it sitting at home. We'll still be out here, so don't worry.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old November 14th, 2010, 12:22 PM
michael67's Avatar
michael67
Status: Offline
Michael White
110 Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray_G View Post
I've stayed out of this for the most part since I'm busy (working at capacity since, according to this post the 14 years I've got in are due to personal laziness) deployed at this time, where I'll be for ~6 more months being an agent of American influence I suppose.

If this were a forum like Dweb, and not as polite as D-90 typically is, I'd call you a d-bag. As it is I'll simply tell you that while you deserve respect for your service you don't have mine b/c of the way you portray those that have served before you, those that served with you, and those beside me serving now.

That's your right though. Hope you enjoy the cold comfort of it sitting at home. We'll still be out here, so don't worry.
When you joined, then, did you join with the intention of retiring from the military? If so, then my "laziness" comment obviously doesn't apply to you, and I apologize if my statement was taken that way. I was referring to the folks who sign up for the "$x0,000 for college" program then stay in because of the re-enlistment bonuses and because it's easier than going to school or following through with their original plan.

And my concern is that you're there - I don't want you to be there doing things in my name. How can anyone see occupying a foreign country as good thing? Imagine if there were foreign occupiers here - would you love them and accept their ways? They would obviously have to be superior if they're occupying our country.

Anyone who has signed up in the last decade or so would have to be seriously fooling themselves (even more than I did) to think they're going to be defending America.

I want no thanks, and I deserve no thanks, for my veteran work, and I still fail to see how "supporting the troops" overseas or thanking any veteran who served after 1812 (many of whom were not "regulars") is something that should be done. However, feel free to thank me that you can use a cell phone during an earthquake or in the face of various failures - that's something I'm proud of....

Or does everyone here think I should have stayed in the military? After all, there's no "engineer day" that I take off from work.
__________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the
black flag and start slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old November 14th, 2010, 01:18 PM
Ray_G's Avatar
Ray_G
Status: Offline
Ray Gerber
54 S1 86", 96 D1 (Coyote), 06 D3
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NoVA
Posts: 2,636
Registry
Actually when I joined I did so with the thought that I'd do four years and move on, it having paid for 75% of my college and being something that I knew I wanted to do but didn't know if I wanted to make it a career. Since then I've thought about getting out a few times at various milestones but haven't. The biggest reason why is rather simple; the people. I'm cynical and jaded at the entire world because of the job that I do and the things I've encountered, but the Marines and sailors that I've worked with are simply phenomenal and walking away from that to something else just seems unsatisfactory. They are the best this country has to offer, and that is actually why they deserve appreciation.

If you don't want me here, vote-and find more people that think like you to vote that way too. I'm happy to come home and enjoy my life there vice away from those that I care about for months at a time.

I should also point out that one of the things we've been doing out here for the past 3 months is flood relief in Pakistan. While the complexity of that area is more than I want get into in this response, suffice it to say they didn't view us occupiers when we were delivering food to areas ravaged by the worst flooding they've had in the past 100 years (if not their recorded history). So while we may visit evils on all manner of people, we also stand alone as the only country in the world that is capable of such things with their power too.

I'm exceptionally skeptical of the pretense that got us into Iraq (and I've served multiple combat deployments there), unsatisfied with aspects of the campaign in Afghanistan, as well as having some reservations about the way we've waged our 'war on terror' I think you're argument about those in the post 9/11 arena not defending their country is disingenuous. At the end of the day, whether or not you like it, we're playing an away game out here. The worst thing we've encountered since is some idiot trying to light his underwear on fire or the UPS/FEDEX thing. So it might be clumsy, and it might not be the most nuanced way of doing business, but personally I am happy to be out here so that I don't have to worry as much about what my daughter's day at school is going to get interrupted by.

Maybe you've got a better idea with how to deal with the people that do very much intend to do us harm.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old November 14th, 2010, 03:59 PM
JFD's Avatar
JFD
Status: Offline
Julien Dalbin
05 Tdi 90
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dominican Republic
Posts: 1,888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray_G View Post
better idea with how to deal with the people that do very much intend to do us harm.
that's the key of the whole thing.

i personnaly think there are other ways but they are definitely less profitable.

may be this is not the best place to discuss this, but i think it's good to be able to exchange opinion on this without turning it into a food fight.
__________________
" Eventually everything connects - people, ideas, objects. The quality of the connections is the key to quality per se. "
- Charles Eames
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old November 15th, 2010, 09:40 AM
o2batsea's Avatar
o2batsea
Status: Online
Bill Adams
66 109 sw 94 lwb
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: kensington md
Posts: 6,498
Registry
may be this is not the best place to discuss this, but i think it's good to be able to exchange opinion on this without turning it into a food fight.

While we may not agree on Mr White's outlook on things, the fact that he can freely express his opinion wherever and however he wishes is one of the gifts bestowed upon him through the sacrifice of untold military service personnel from the very beginning of our country's history.

I work in an organization that is in touch with all the f*cked up places on Earth where saying stuff like he did will get you put in jail with zero "due process" or just plain disappeared. Maybe he'd like to try living somewhere where there is less "government"?
__________________
Bill Adams

1966 109 5 door wagon 300Tdi "spermaceti fueled"
1994 RRC LeWiB "ruining the air behind me"
1968 2A 88

All my troubles are Rover
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old November 17th, 2010, 10:33 AM
GYM's Avatar
GYM
Status: Offline
Gary
97 SW
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: West Coast
Posts: 1,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael67 View Post
... and the government is printing money like mad to avoid raising taxes...

Wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old November 17th, 2010, 12:01 PM
ssbartley1's Avatar
ssbartley1
Status: Offline
Steve Bartley
1997 SW #160
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 503
Registry
-

Wow, youre a real moron.


[QUOTE=michael67;250308]The military does offer good college benefits, or at least used to, to the few who actually leave the military. Most get lazy and stay in. Or, more recently, are forced to stay in.

I can't see how a job shooting people would be useful in something productive, like an engineering company or manufacturing. The skills they return with seem to just feed into more government jobs; the ones that come back in one piece, anyway. The rest (such as the legless veteran who panhandles a few miles from here) are often a burden to their family and to tax payers for the rest of their lives, many with no hope of future relationships. After all, how many women find a colostomy bag sexy?
__________________
Steve B-
Otterberg, Germany
-----------
"Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors."
- Hunter S. Thompson
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old November 17th, 2010, 12:10 PM
tjfslaughter's Avatar
tjfslaughter
Status: Offline
thomas
Burbon
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NorthEast
Posts: 4,563
X2.

Image attached on what I think


[QUOTE=ssbartley1;251031]Wow, youre a real moron.


Quote:
Originally Posted by michael67 View Post
The military does offer good college benefits, or at least used to, to the few who actually leave the military. Most get lazy and stay in. Or, more recently, are forced to stay in.

I can't see how a job shooting people would be useful in something productive, like an engineering company or manufacturing. The skills they return with seem to just feed into more government jobs; the ones that come back in one piece, anyway. The rest (such as the legless veteran who panhandles a few miles from here) are often a burden to their family and to tax payers for the rest of their lives, many with no hope of future relationships. After all, how many women find a colostomy bag sexy?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	douchebag.jpg
Views:	80
Size:	49.2 KB
ID:	33237  
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old November 17th, 2010, 02:08 PM
ssbartley1's Avatar
ssbartley1
Status: Offline
Steve Bartley
1997 SW #160
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 503
Registry
-

I agree with you, I think this clown is full of it and most likely never served a day in uniformed service in his entire life.

Anybody that would harrass veterans and those thanking them for their service on a Veterans Day thread has never worn the uniform, or if he has- he was booted from service with a Big Chicken Dinner for being a dead beat.

It would be nice if he would return to his flock at the Westboro Baptist Church-


Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
Dude I have no problem with my tax money supporting someone who gave their legs inservice to their country
You do not speak as one who served in the military and I am beginning to think you are telling fibs.
__________________
Steve B-
Otterberg, Germany
-----------
"Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors."
- Hunter S. Thompson
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old November 20th, 2010, 07:05 PM
rijosho's Avatar
rijosho
Status: Offline
Joshua
1995 Black ST - Rhinolined edition
Research Assistant/Eagle Eyes
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,557
Registry
This is one of the few times I'm not rooting for ARMY. GO IRISH. At the Notre Dame vs. ARMY game at Yankee Stadium.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-1939753652.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	94.3 KB
ID:	33332  
__________________
Quote:
I am talking purely from an aesthetics standpoint.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 01:04 PM
michael67's Avatar
michael67
Status: Offline
Michael White
110 Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
may be this is not the best place to discuss this, but i think it's good to be able to exchange opinion on this without turning it into a food fight.

While we may not agree on Mr White's outlook on things, the fact that he can freely express his opinion wherever and however he wishes is one of the gifts bestowed upon him through the sacrifice of untold military service personnel from the very beginning of our country's history.

I work in an organization that is in touch with all the f*cked up places on Earth where saying stuff like he did will get you put in jail with zero "due process" or just plain disappeared. Maybe he'd like to try living somewhere where there is less "government"?
So without the military, our country would be corrupt like, say, a military dictatorship? I'm not quite following. I realize that there are many worse places than the US, although the US has been getting worse over the years (from "free" to "mostly free" on heritage.org). And the actions of the military give me little confidence that they will protect these freedoms going forward:

- Where was the military when the Church of the Branch Davidians was being burned to the ground? Oh yeah, watching. There goes the first amendment.

- Where was the military when the citizens of Louisiana were being disarmed? Oh yeah, doing the disarming - there goes the second.

- Where was the military when Guantanamo was full of prisoners denied any sort of due process? Oh yeah, doing the holding - there goes the fourth through eighth.

I could probably list ones for the ninth and tenth, but those may be a bit more difficult to argue. However, can you provide an example in the last century where the military has done something to prevent the loss of our freedoms?

------ Follow up post added November 23rd, 2010 12:22 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssbartley1 View Post
I agree with you, I think this clown is full of it and most likely never served a day in uniformed service in his entire life.

Anybody that would harrass veterans and those thanking them for their service on a Veterans Day thread has never worn the uniform, or if he has- he was booted from service with a Big Chicken Dinner for being a dead beat.

It would be nice if he would return to his flock at the Westboro Baptist Church-
Not sure what these references are. I received an honorable discharge, which is what you get if you show up when they ask you to show up and don't screw up too much. And just because I once wore a uniform doesn't mean I stop learning, growing, or thinking for myself. I just think it's wrong to murder, steal, and force people to do things against their will. That is what government (and a standing military by extension) does.

I'm not familiar with whatever the "Big Chicken Dinner" thing is. I just got out as soon as I could by not re-enlisting.

And I'm not sure why you would think I belong to a church or any such organization. I've never desecrated the US flag, I have nothing against homo- (or hetero- or bi-) sexuals, and I'm not a Baptist. And if you think that the reason the US is such a great place is because of the military, then do you think countries that are essentially military dictatorships (e.g. North Korea) are even better? I thought the reason the US was great was because it was founded on the ideals spelled out in the Declaration of Independence, the recognition of the rights of all men, not just for the worship of a local (versus overseas) government. Silly me....
__________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the
black flag and start slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 01:32 PM
MUDSUX's Avatar
MUDSUX
Status: Offline
Forrest
Like my Tatas?
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Orlando, Fl. US
Posts: 1,641
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael67 View Post
....However, can you provide an example in the last century where the military has done something to prevent the loss of our freedoms?
I can give you one example--me. I am a by product of, some would say, a fairly unpopular war. The Viet Nam War. Were it not for the courageous men and women of the US military, fighting a war not their own, I would not be here today. Their sacrifices has given me the opportunity to live beyond the age of 5, to live free, have free access to an education, and to become a productive member of this society. I am forever greatful.
__________________
MUDSUX

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag"
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 01:51 PM
Neil McCauley's Avatar
Neil McCauley
Status: Offline
Neil McCauley
94 ST, 97 ST, 93 110
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,366
Also a shout out ot all our service members here! Thanks for serving!
__________________
A guy told me one time "don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat from around the corner"

Robert Deniro
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:00 PM
JimC's Avatar
JimC
Status: Offline
Jim Cheney
NAS 110 #145
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 7,154
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
This is one of the few times I'm not rooting for ARMY. GO IRISH. At the Notre Dame vs. ARMY game at Yankee Stadium.
That was such a wierd stadium set-up - even the 50 yard-line seats sucked!
__________________
Jim Cheney

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:01 PM
tjfslaughter's Avatar
tjfslaughter
Status: Offline
thomas
Burbon
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NorthEast
Posts: 4,563
Some people need to review Title 10, U.S. Code, Section 3062 (a)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Veterans Day Rod Hayward Misc. Chit-Chat 3 November 12th, 2007 12:18 PM
Memorial Day Defender13 Misc. Chit-Chat 2 May 29th, 2006 10:12 PM
Somewhere in NY/NJ/PA in Nov? loykd Trips, Trails and Events 22 October 14th, 2003 02:18 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27 PM.


Copyright