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Old July 23rd, 2006, 11:24 PM
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Wink Tires: an odessy

I've had a long term love-hate relationship with my tires for the last couple of years, and our relationship made some real progress today. Please enjoy my tire odessy below:

After originally getting my truck with BFG all terrains and stock suspension, I upgraded to the OME package and I mounted up some 255/85 BFG muds onto the stock alloys. I was happy with this for a while, the MT is a solid performer, great on-road and mostly great off road as well, except for the deep mud where it just doesn't have the lug spacing. Problem was that I was living in Florida at the time, and we found lots and lots of deep mud (and water). It didn't help that all my wheeling buddies were starting to run Super Swampers, and I was starting to be the one getting stuck a lot.

So after a few years of this, I took the leap and bought a set of 34x10.5 15 LTB Bias ply swampers. What can I say, funds were tight (they're about the least expensive swamper made). I mounted them on 'used' 15" SG american racing wheels ($$ real tight), and dropped 6 oz of Equal in them. Holy crap did they bounce... I mean steering wheel shaking, teeth rattling type bouncing. Hated it... Then I drove them off road. Holy crap did they ROCK! I even won the mud-hole challenge at the next Solaros event - against trucks with bigger tires and lockers. Suddenly, instead of the one getting stuck all the time, I was doing the recovering. But on the street, ohh... it just hurt to drive it. Nevermind what was happening to wheel bearings and everything else loosening up....

So I did the only logical thing: I bought a truck and trailer to tow it! Actually, that came later. First I had the tires dismounted, scooped out the Equal and tried traditional balancing. No difference. Then I bought a new set of steel wheels from GCR, 15X7 that were on sale, and tried the Equal again. Slightly better. That's about when I moved to Rhode Island and got the truck and trailer (trailer isn't really mine, but its stored at my place and I use it as needed).

The trailer was a great solution for a while, I was going to some longer distance spots like Rausch and up to Vermont, but the problem was I was begining to miss just driving the truck. I love the truck, but I started to wheel a little less, I had bought an old house and was busy doing things, and the truck just sat. The wife didn't like to go for rides because lets face it, it just wasn't pleasant. So then I decided to go back to the alloys and 255/85s for a while, at least on the street. 2x that bit me in the ass because I attempted a couple of last minute wheeling adventures, so didn't change tires and got myself in trouble that I think the swampers would have helped (they stick out so much farther, so they'd have protected against some light body damage (I think). Another time, I got stuck bad in an unknown swamp, and the truck spent the night out there... That was the last time she was driven for a while, and a bunch of stuff got broke, and I only got her back together from that just recently. So clearly the 2 tire plan just wasn't working out for me.

So I've been driving it with the BFG's for a few weeks now, trying to decide what to do about tires. I'm getting rid of the pickup truck, and going back to the 90 full time. I really don't need two vehicles anymore, I work from home and don't drive much. But here's the thing a lot of you might not know... once the Swamper is in your blood, your never quite satisfied with your standard mud terrain. Those things simply transform the truck, in looks as well as performance. I'm not kidding, it's like a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde or Clark Kent/Superman type of thing, no shit. I don't think I have to remind you all what happened when Superman tried to remain Clark Kent.... but I digress. I just wasn't happy with the alloys and BFGs anymore, even on the street.

With a new baby at home, I know my wheeling is going to be occasional at best. Plus with aforementioned baby, the truck budget has been significantly adjusted down. So I've been wondering: I've got 2 complete sets of tires, one very streetable and one insanely bad ass, plus a set of 15x8 rims of questionable round-ness. How do I get to one set of bad ass yet streetable tires out of this mess with the minimum amount of cash?

All manner of ideas were working their way through my mind... Sell the BFGs, sell the alloys, mount the SS on the 'old' rims and sell as an off-road only set, use the 'new' steelies and buy... what? What to buy? and not only which brand, but what size? The 34x10.5 is an odd, but in my opinion perfect size for an OME lifted defender with steelies. They sit just past the edge of the eyebrow, not too wide, but aggresively positions. Just a bit taller than all the 33s out there... Perfect.

Well guess what, there's NO other tire in that size... Not one. Do I go DOWN a size (oh the horror!) to the 33x12.5? Is the 12.5 too wide for the 'new' 7 inch rims? Are my 8 inch rims good enough with a decent tire to balance and be smooth? Could I go up to 35s? Would that put me over the edge with gearing and drivelive vibes? I'd been lucky so far... Plus, could I even fit a 35 with my lift? what about a 35x10.5, those might fit? But again, which tire fits my needs? the BFG mud again? MTR - too pricey for me. Procomp? SSR? perhaps the Trxus radial? Sort of an in between, yet still a Swamper....

I really don't want to make another almost $1000 mistake. I even thought of buying ANOTHER set of rims, 16x7 this time and mounting my existing BFGs on them, as I'm really over the alloys and the 10.5 isn't really much wider than the 255/85... decisions, decisions, decisions. It's been killing me.

Then I thought, an epiphany really: what if I gave the swampers one more chance? But this time, load up the Equal. See, I really love the look of the tires, the performance off road is sick, and the tire size perfect... If I could just get the on-road performance a little better. They don't need to be perfect, just good enough for around town. Anywhere else we take the wive's car, except for wheeling trips. That's when I just don't want to rattle my teeth and wheel bearings loose. So it does have to be high-way suitable.

I started thinking about how much weight they put on the tires when I had attempted the traditional balancing, and thought perhaps the recommended 6 oz of Equal wasn't quite enough. As luck would have it, a few years ago I had bought an entire case of Equal, as it was only slightly more than EE was getting for 5 wheels worth. Ok, more than 'slighty more', but still not that bad, and I sold a few packets to make up the difference. I still had lots left. So, I broke the bead on the rims, and dumped in 9 oz MORE of Equal each tire, that's about 15 oz each now in the tires, maybe more as I can't really remember how much I put in the last time..... and .... drumroll please .... it WORKED!!!!!

At least it SORT of worked. There is NO steering wheel shake... none, nada, zip. This was always the biggest problem for me, as I just FELT it shaking things loose in the past. I do get some overall bouncing between about 55-68 MPH, but it's really not bad and it mostly clears up around 70. Of course, maintaining 70 on these hills can be tough with the swampers and stock gears, and anything higher than that is silly talk on swampers anyway. I did hit about 80 downhill and it was still pretty smooth.

I am going to play with the spare tomorrow to see if maybe it's just one of my rear tires thats bad, but either way this is a HUGE improvement. I'm actually daring to think I might just keep the swampers. I think rotating tires might be out, I don't want to upset the fragile balance I may have found, but I can deal with that...

Ah.... Life's just funny sometimes. The answer can be right there in a cardboard box of Equal.

So I just wanted to share with some folks that might understand my obession, or not ... am I that far gone? My wife just doesn't seem to care!
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  #2  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 11:37 PM
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Yup, I get the feeling yur toast. Join the club obsessing just about everything on the Rover. It just is never enough. The customizing is endless-it's half the fun. I've been brainstorming about the swampers too. not much to replace the 255/85/R16's , Plenty at the 35 level but then the lift and susp takes on a whole new light. I always thought the old XZL' were a good tire on and off road. Did some serious stuff on those. But after the 33" s , they seem lackluster.
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Old July 23rd, 2006, 11:52 PM
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Oh yes, I've been toast for years with this truck. XZL's do seem sweet, but a little narrow for my tastes, and aren't they also pretty tough to find?

Now I'm trying to decide if it's time for gears... which of course begs the locker question. Detroit or ARB? I could probably afford a Detroit right now for the rear, maybe squeeze out enough cabbage for a set of Keiths axles... but is that money better spent on gears? Of course, if you're in there, how "can't" you drop in a locker? But then it's getting out of budget... *sigh*

I'm watching desperately for used 3rds with gears and lockers... can't believe I missed a set a few months back. I saw those ARB-4.75s, and I was tempted, but I really think that's too much gear. 4.10 is what I need with these 34" tires.
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  #4  
Old July 24th, 2006, 12:16 AM
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Every question you are battling with are same I am battling with. Same with the ARB 4.75 set up, but too much gear for me. To Arb or not to Arb, to Arb in rear only or frt too, to lift or not to lft OYBpsao1b9we6353

I'm thinking to gear it at the transfer box instead of the diffs, not keen on reducing the gear strength there.
So ogically budget wise that is, to strengthen the axle/CV's would be first, gearing next, arB in rear only for me,
and then lift and tires to 35".

Read a lot on the detroit, it' s a sound and strong system thats been around, but seems jerky on the road.
I 've also been research the McNamara vacuum operated diff lock, simple and strong, but don't have too much info on that one, seems like a good one..
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Old July 24th, 2006, 12:21 AM
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I think most Defender owners battle the same questions. I'm leaning towards saving my dough and doing a Toyota 3rd swap with e-lockers that Keith has. I've heard you can run 35's all day without much chance of breakage. Seems money better spent than jsut upgrading the Rover stuff and stuffing in ARB's - cheaper too.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 12:50 AM
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Will Peters
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Cool

Hum... I have SSR's and now (I run them on both my D90 and my RRC) that I have had swampers I can't go back to my MTR's and stuff. I have tried like 6 different tires but have not been happy with any of them off road until I got the swampers. But the only reason I have thaught about not buying the swampers again is the bad steering wheel shake and bouncing I get from about 55 mph up. I mean I'm 18 and can put up with a lot but I just can't get them ride smooth with normal balancing. So recently I have been seriously considering getting rid of the SSR's and getting TrXus MT's. But I really don't want to. I would like to run either the LTB's like you or my current SSR's that I love off road. I mean the other MT's and stuff I have tried just don't compare in off road performance, and I mean the swampers just look bad ass.

I'll have to try the ton of equal approach. I might actually do it this week. I've been told to by a few people to maybe give it a try but never thaught it could really do much more then the traditional balancing I have now.

I think I might try 8 oz. on each tire (32/33" tall about 11" wide on a 16" rim SSR) and see how that works, that that's like double what EE recommends for each tire...
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Old July 24th, 2006, 07:28 AM
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Nice.

Dave,you may remember I PM'd you time ago about LTBs and decided to follow your route...
...well,in the end I called the seller and waited for him to get a container from the US,but weeks passed by and LTBs didn't come...

"next week..call me again"

"nothing in this container,gotta be the next one,let's say another 15 days"

"nope,30 days,September"


AWWWW!

"right.what you have there?"

"SSRs in 285/75 size,ready to ship..."
(obviously +40 Euros each...)

"send me 4 + spare"

"4 only"


(ouff!)

I am waiting for the courier to arrive...today...

I hope these SSRs are really good,pics don't tell much and lugs look not "so" deep...?
Had a chat with Keith (RT) and all he had were good words for them...so I am a bit reassured...


The truck will be checked out at the local MoT station on Wednesday so fingers crossed


I wheeled my old,worn,tiny XZLs yesterday...las time...?
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Old July 24th, 2006, 10:12 AM
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What a coincidence.
Saturday I pulled my 34" ltb's off and stuck my stock at's and rims back on so my girl could borrow my truck for a road trip. My truck looked neutered.
I don't have experience with a lot of different tires but I love my ltbs. I know they are loud on the road, heavy, and prone to shimmy but when I have to climb up a steep muddy river bank I'm glad I have them. Most of my wheeling is on a friends ranch. Lots of river crossings, which are a hoot! With the ltbs I easily make it up riverbanks that with the old ats on I would have to go hunt up a big wad of tamarisk to winch off of.

Dave B. said in an old thread that he had heard of people having good success balancing tires like ours with air rifle BBs. I haven't tried it yet but its worth a shot.

I can't wait to put my ltbs back on.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
would have to go hunt up a big wad of tamarisk to winch off of
Tamarisk...!



Damn courier hasn't arrived yet...
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Old July 24th, 2006, 11:24 AM
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I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with Super Swamper's disease. They are sick. I thought a lot about SSRs too, but they're pretty expensive and I was concerned I'd have similar issues. They do come in the 35x10.5 size though, which is rare. I was leaning pretty hard towards the Trxus MT for a while there though. That might still be the route I take if I decide this isn't working.

I just read about the BBs method last night on Jeep board. I think they recommended 8 oz. per tire. I think Equal is superior to BBs because it's the same effect, putting dynamic weight at the edges of the tire, but better because you don't hear the BBs bouncing off your rims when you stop. Of course, Equal is also significantly more expensive than a pack of BBs.

FYI Will, I got a case of 3 oz Equal at Myers Tire Supply . They sell things like tire changers and other equipment to tire shops. Even came with the special valve stems. I don't remember how many were in the case, but I think it was a little over $2 per packet. You can get the cases of any size packets, I got the 3 oz because I figured I'd sell them easier or use then in smaller tires on other vehicles. If you're going to use a lot of it, or have a buddy or two you can split it with, it might be an option.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 12:30 PM
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I've had my SSR's on almost a year and I don't have any complaints. I had them mounted and balanced on GCR 16 x 7 rims and they run pretty smooth. It took a lot of weight to balance them - about 11 - 12 oz a piece on the outside plus whatever they had to put on the inside of the wheel. They are a bit loud, but no more than the BFG Mt's I had on before. I think the price is comparable to BFG Mt's and Goodyear MTR's of the same size. I went with the 32x11.5 size. Since they run big, they measure almost a true 33" on the 7" rim so I was comparing the price to other 285/75 tires. SSR's come in 285/75 size too, but they measure closer to 34". I haven't tried them in the mud, but when aired down on loose dirt and rocks the Defender now climbs like it has tank treads.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 12:53 PM
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Just to chime in with experience on some of the issues -

1) Equal is hit or miss - often a miss. Doesn't settle right in one of the tires - or there's some moisture - and wobbling away you go.

2) Use the weights that glue on to the inside flat part of the rim. Have them balance inside AND outside. Watch the machine yourself cuz often the balancing guy will give up too early before it is all zeros. If it won't balance, have them spin the tire on the rim 20-30 degrees and try balancing again.

3) The bigger the tire the harder to maintain correct balance. 7.5 XZLs work just great down here in so cal desert.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d901560
I haven't tried them in the mud, but when aired down on loose dirt and rocks the Defender now climbs like it has tank treads.
you won't be disappointed when you get in the mud, that's for sure.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 04:52 AM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by d901560
I've had my SSR's on almost a year SSR's come in 285/75 size too, but they measure closer to 34". I haven't tried them in the mud, but when aired down on loose dirt and rocks the Defender now climbs like it has tank treads.
Just got tyres!!!!
YPPEEEEE!


Nice meaty SSRs!
Actually the Cube is on 255/85 BFG MTs.
Side by side,the SSRs look as tall as the MTs.
They're not mounted on the rims/inflated yet of course,but they look just fine.

Oh happy day


I will let you know about balancing them...


P.S.
Hey,are they a tad on the heavy side or is it me getting weaker?!
Loaded/unloaded on/off the truck 2 times and my arms are 2" longer...
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Old July 26th, 2006, 09:56 AM
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I love the Super Swampers. But I finally gave up on them when my truck shook so much my fillings started getting loose.
I first tried equal to balance and that didnt work. Then I went to traditional balaning and that was a little better.
Finally sold them to a disco owner in VA.
heres a pic of the tires at work.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 10:06 AM
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Question snow

Ron,
did you have snowchains made to suit?
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Old July 26th, 2006, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cube II
P.S.
Hey,are they a tad on the heavy side or is it me getting weaker?!
Loaded/unloaded on/off the truck 2 times and my arms are 2" longer...
Swampers are very heavy. I never bothered to weigh them, but I carry the spare on the roof rack, and it's a job for one person to get it up there... Should be moving to a Mantec soon as I really don't like all that weight up there.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 01:54 PM
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Michele, the tires are TSL Super Swampers 34x9.5x16 and I used chains for a 285x75x16.
It was a pain getting them over the lugs but once on they where great.
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  #19  
Old July 26th, 2006, 02:51 PM
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For a spare tire carrier talk to Eric at Atlantic British - he can get some of the WVA Holdings tire carriers (same ones that Scorpion Racing sells) for $130 less than the Mantec carrier - I think its a better design and heavier duty than the Mantec unit. I've got one on order for an early August delivery - will post pics when it gets here.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 04:47 PM
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I've never been able to confirm that the Scorpion Racing carrier fits with the NAS roof rack. I tried to check with 4x4ag.com the scorpion dealer in the US, and they hadn't been able to verify weather or not it fits. Plus their price is the same. I never checked AB honestly never think of them (or RN) for accessories, just parts.

I also got the Mantec from British Pacific on their 20% off day (thanks Hoss), so I'm pretty good on the price.
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