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Old April 28th, 2010, 03:08 AM
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There is a new guy in the Locker Market....

Hi Guys,

This is going to have to be a pretty long post to get the information out that I want to share so I apologize up front, grab a beverage and bear with me so I can present my ‘findings’…..

I was asked to run and test a new type of Differential Locker that is being introduced to the US Market from Brazil. The locker is being marketed here under the ‘Kaiser’ brand and is being sold by a company called 'The Expeditioneers' (www.expeditioneers.com) based in Phoenix (its not on their website yet but their contact details are). Current price uninstalled is about the same as an ARB at $900.

First off let me point out that I don't work for or have any official affiliation with either of these companies and I make no gains from any sales of these lockers. I was asked to test it and give my feedback and having done so I think it is good enough that some of you may be interested in it so I am sharing it with the forum.

The Brazilian manufacturer has been in business for 48 yrs and specializes in manufacturing OEM parts for the Agricultural and Heavy Equipment markets as well as the general auto markets. They released this locker design in their local markets about 5 years ago and it is now the local market leader. It is being used in 4x4s, Race Cars, Rally Cars, Drag Racers, Commercial Vans, Light trucks and so on. So it gets tested in a pretty wide range of applications. They have waited to introduce it to the US so as to make sure that any design, manufacturing, reliability and premature wear kinks could be worked out.

They are so confident in it that they offer a 1 year manufacturers warranty against defects that does not restrict ANY modifications to the vehicle it is fitted to. If you have 35s or 37s, crawler gears, chipped ECU, suspension lift or other mods, they don’t care. Check the fine print on some of the other locker manufacturer’s supposedly better and or longer warranties and you’ll find clauses like ‘not warranted off-road’, not warranted if vehicle has been modified’ and so on.

Ok, that's the background, so what is it?

It is a 100% locked unit that allows for the differences in wheel speed such as when cornering or when traveling over rough terrain. It offers very similar functionality to something like the Detroit Locker but without some of the drawbacks and the benefit that it can be used in both the front or rear axels. Internally it works very differently to anything else that we have out there on the market at the moment. The version for us fits the standard Rover 24 Spline Diff like those fitted to all US D1s, D2s, D90s and later RRCs. It replaces the Rover Gear Carrier but re-uses the existing Ring Gear and Bearings. It’s a direct bolt in replacement that takes less than 2hrs to fit and set up if the 3rd Member is out of the vehicle. It requires no add ons like compressors, air lines, solenoids, switches, etc. and it needs no special fluids or maintenance.

So as to try and keep this mail to something slightly below the word count of War and Peace I won't go into the explanation of how it works here. If anybody wants me to break it down and explain it, just post up and I will do so.

I installed one of the units into the rear Axle of my D90 just before the Overland Expo. Prior to that I had a chance to look at the design and during the Expo the chance to talk at length with the 2 guys form Kaiser who came over from Brazil to demonstrate it. At first I was skeptical. After all we have had lockers for years and the 3 primary types are all very similar with similar features or drawbacks. How could this be any better? But it actually is.

Its single biggest benefit to us in the Rover community I think is the fact that it is easy on the driveline. Unlike a Detroit or other permanent locker it takes almost no force to allow a wheel to turn faster and allow for differences in travel distance such as in a turn or on uneven ground and it does so without compromising the drive lock. Unlike an ARB or other selectable locker it does not rigidly lock the wheels together at the same speed and force them to fight each other for traction in a turn or rough terrain. Unlike a TruTrac or other LSD it is 100% locked to drive direction and does not require a difference in wheel speed to lock up.

What it does is simple. It locks both wheels to the direction and speed of drive but allows either wheel (but only 1 at a time) to be turned faster than the drive input so as to allow for a different distance of wheel travel. Neither wheel can travel slower than the Ring Gear but either wheel can travel faster (but not both together).

The force needed to allow a wheel to turn faster is very minimal. As an experiment after I had fitted it, I tried some different combinations of wheel lift with a jack to see what happened:

1 Wheel up/In Gear = Wheel turns (Overrun).
1 Wheel up/Neutral = Wheel Turns (Overrun).
2 Wheels Up/In Gear = 1 Wheel will turn, but not both.
2 Wheels up/Neutral = 1 Wheel will turn but the trans doesn't or both wheels will turn and the trans does.

What this means is the locker requires less force to allow it to overrun than the trans needs to get it to turn in neutral. With the prop shaft off, both wheels turn in the same direction (Locked). With an open diff, they turn in opposite directions.

OK so that's the theory, does it work?

The quick answer is yes, very well. I have driven a few hundred miles with it now, primarily on but also some off road. On road you have no idea it is there. It does not chirp the tires, bind, suddenly unload like a shotgun or make any other indication that you have it fitted. The vehicle driving characteristics on a dry road (no rain since I had it fitted and I live in central AZ so no mud or snow, sorry) are exactly the same as with an open standard diff. There is no additional noise (you can't hear it at all), whine or vibration. There is no resistance to steering input or tire scrub. Since I currently have an open front and a Kaiser in the rear, after I got back from the Expo a week or so ago I checked the temperature of the two diff housings after 130 miles or so of Interstate driving and there was no appreciable difference in housing temperatures front to rear. So it's not adding any friction or heat. It's not adding anything to my gas mileage that I can detect.

Off Road? Well again, most of the time you don't know you have it. It doesn't announce itself until you get into a situation of limited traction to one of the wheels on the installed Axle. On a rutted washed out hill climb for example when you get cross axled and lift a wheel, the lifted wheel continues to turn at the same speed as the driven one. So it's working just as a locker should and allowing the wheel on the ground to turn even when the other one has limited or no contact/traction. In a descent you still have engine breaking as you normally would. In loose sandy conditions, it again operates as though it wasn't there and does not scrub the tires and cause you to slip or slide sideways. On a rocky track where the wheels are alternately lifting over rocks or dropping into holes its again silent and unnoticeable.

So what are the benefits to me? Well consider how other lockers work. Most other 100% permanent lockers on the market require some form of force input to overcome a mechanical lock. They use springs, clutch packs or other set ups to lock the wheels together. In order to unlock and allow one wheel to travel further than the other they have to have sufficient force applied to overcome the lock. This force is directed back into the driveline until it unlocks. This puts strain on the axle shafts, hubs, R&P, UJs, etc. It also increases tire wear and uses more gas. Some of them can unlock very suddenly and sharply and again this force change is transmitted back into the driveline and tires. Most selectable lockers are considered to be better because you can turn them off when you don't need them. Ignoring the extra parts you need like compressors or electrical solenoids, etc. They also transmit force into the driveline while in use. Because the axles are locked together, any turn or difference in contour of the ground that causes the wheels to travel different distances will have one wheel fighting the other for traction and transmitting that force back into the driveline and tires again. An LSD requires the wheels to spin at different speed in order to lock up or start to lock up. If that spinning wheel suddenly finds traction or touches down before the diff locks then it is suddenly slowed down and that force is again transmitted back.

Typically most people in the Rover community when they consider installing lockers, also consider upgrading the axle shafts, CVs, hubs, etc. They do so because they know that the locker is going to put additional strain on these and other component s and they need to be beefed up as part of the task of gaining the benefit of locking up the axels. I was looking at probably $5k or more to beef up my driveline as part of fitting lockers to my truck so it was well down my list of things to do. With the Kaiser I am not so concerned about the rest of the driveline. Don't get me wrong, it's still going to put some degree of additional stress in there, but my research and my findings with it so far indicate that it is significantly less than the alternatives out there and I am fairly confident I can probably wait to spend the cash and update my driveline until I fit my 50" tires...

Conclusion. I really like it (did you guess?). I think that if you are considering installing lockers you should take a good look at this one when you are considering your options. Its more expensive than a Detroit or a TruTrac to buy but isn't going to detonate your driveline in 5 mins if you don't upgrade that at the same time. Installed it's cheaper than an ARB or other selectable lockers because you don't need to install the additional activation systems and components. It's also more reliable out on the trail because there are no external wiring or air systems prone to failure.

I will be fitting another one to my front axle in the next couple of weeks or so and I will report back once I have had it in and had a chance to try it out with my findings. But I don't expect any surprises.

Thanks and again sorry for the 'essay'.

Ian
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  #2  
Old April 28th, 2010, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Ok, that's the background, so what is it?

It is a 100% locked unit that allows for the differences in wheel speed such as when cornering or when traveling over rough terrain. It offers very similar functionality to something like the Detroit Locker but without some of the drawbacks and the benefit that it can be used in both the front or rear axels. Internally it works very differently to anything else that we have out there on the market at the moment. The version for us fits the standard Rover 24 Spline Diff like those fitted to all US D1s, D2s, D90s and later RRCs. It replaces the Rover Gear Carrier but re-uses the existing Ring Gear and Bearings. It’s a direct bolt in replacement that takes less than 2hrs to fit and set up if the 3rd Member is out of the vehicle. It requires no add ons like compressors, air lines, solenoids, switches, etc. and it needs no special fluids or maintenance.


Okay, I'll bite. I for one would like more technical information on how the product works. Do you have a link to the manufacturer that explains in detail? It seems to me that some of your statements are contradictory, and just plain don't make sense when talking about a locking differential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
What it does is simple. It locks both wheels to the direction and speed of drive but allows either wheel (but only 1 at a time) to be turned faster than the drive input so as to allow for a different distance of wheel travel. Neither wheel can travel slower than the Ring Gear but either wheel can travel faster (but not both together).

The force needed to allow a wheel to turn faster is very minimal. As an experiment after I had fitted it, I tried some different combinations of wheel lift with a jack to see what happened:

1 Wheel up/In Gear = Wheel turns (Overrun).
1 Wheel up/Neutral = Wheel Turns (Overrun).
2 Wheels Up/In Gear = 1 Wheel will turn, but not both.
2 Wheels up/Neutral = 1 Wheel will turn but the trans doesn't or both wheels will turn and the trans does.

What this means is the locker requires less force to allow it to overrun than the trans needs to get it to turn in neutral. With the prop shaft off, both wheels turn in the same direction (Locked). With an open diff, they turn in opposite directions.
Maybe I’m not understanding your tests? Maybe it’s a matter of semantics? But it can’t be a 100% locked unit if only one wheel turns when you lift both wheels of the same axle in the air. That is exactly the same result a typical open differential will give you. And what does ‘1 Wheel up/In Gear = Wheel turns (overrun) mean? Does this mean the wheel in the air turns? Because if so, again, this is the same result as an open differential. An axle with a locker would have both wheels turn and drive the vehicle off the jack. Anyone else share my confusion?

Based on your test results it makes it difficult for me to understand how this device will increase your traction offroad, or how it really behaves any differently than an open differential, please help me understand..

------ Follow up post added April 28th, 2010 10:47 AM ------

Fairly Developed thread with some photos over on IH8MUD..

------ Follow up post added April 28th, 2010 10:53 AM ------

'Coming Soon' Web Site for Kaiser Locker..

YouTube Video of 'how it works'

Exploded view of the Unit?
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  #3  
Old April 28th, 2010, 10:54 AM
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I think what he is saying is that if you jack up a wheel and turn it by hand it will spin. Thus proving that the locker allows for overrun by the outside wheel in a turn. IOW the locker is providing drive to both wheels but one can still turn faster. Yes if he had the engine running and engaged a gear it would drive off the jack especially with full time 4wd.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LRNAD90 View Post


Okay, I'll bite. I for one would like more technical information on how the product works. Do you have a link to the manufacturer that explains in detail? It seems to me that some of your statements are contradictory, and just plain don't make sense when talking about a locking differential.



Maybe I’m not understanding your tests? Maybe it’s a matter of semantics? But it can’t be a 100% locked unit if only one wheel turns when you lift both wheels of the same axle in the air. That is exactly the same result a typical open differential will give you. And what does ‘1 Wheel up/In Gear = Wheel turns (overrun) mean? Does this mean the wheel in the air turns? Because if so, again, this is the same result as an open differential. An axle with a locker would have both wheels turn and drive the vehicle off the jack. Anyone else share my confusion?

Based on your test results it makes it difficult for me to understand how this device will increase your traction offroad, or how it really behaves any differently than an open differential, please help me understand..

------ Follow up post added April 28th, 2010 10:47 AM ------

Fairly Developed thread with some photos over on IH8MUD..
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Old April 28th, 2010, 12:11 PM
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I am trying to wrap my head around it too. Looks to be just like a Detroit locker but without the same amount of play or slack needed to unlock or lock back up. Or am I still lost?
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Old April 28th, 2010, 12:17 PM
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Thanks Ren Chin, you're exactly right. I found out on the IH8MUD forum how hard it can be to 'describe' a locker in words. Was asked by a friend to go post on there because they where ripping it up whith no idea what it was or how it worked just because they had never heard of it before.

Got to run to the office now but I will post up a descrition of how it works later when I get hom. For now, here is the exploded diagram with some names to the parts. The names are mine. If you are trying to follow the diagram there is one key pice missing (they said they left it off to keep the diagram simple). The red cage shown in the bottom diagram (# 10) is missing from the exploded view.

Thanks

Ian
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Old April 28th, 2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ini88 View Post


I am trying to wrap my head around it too. Looks to be just like a Detroit locker but without the same amount of play or slack needed to unlock or lock back up. Or am I still lost?
I find the videos can be confusing. I got totaly the wrong idea from watching them to begin with until I got to play with the demonstration unit and talk it over with the Kaiser guys at the Expo.

I'll post up a full description of what it does later.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 03:47 PM
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Are there any tests going on running this in the front diff?
It would be interesting to see how this works in wet/muddy conditons. On the East coast, slick rock is, well, slick rock.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 04:04 PM
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I cannot see how it would work any different than a Detroit in the front. A Detroit can easily be turned by hand on overrun as well. Maybe it is not prone to the occasional binding that a Detroit does, but overall it should do the same thing for a lot higher cost. What I would like to see is a Torsen with a manual locking feature...
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Old April 28th, 2010, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Roverhound View Post
Are there any tests going on running this in the front diff?
It would be interesting to see how this works in wet/muddy conditons. On the East coast, slick rock is, well, slick rock.
As soon as I get chance to pull and refit my front 3rd then I will have a front one in and can give you the benefit of actual testing. For now I am just going by what I know of the design and my experiences with the rear. I see no reason why it shouldn't be fine as it can't sufffer from the same 'wind up/unload' problems that a detroit does.

I will sit down and write up a description of how it works then post it up in a bit and you can make up your own mind.

Thanks

Ian

Sorry, soft sand is the nearest I can get to mud n stuff right now. We don't have much in the way of slick rock here in central or southern AZ. Its more and sometimes much more slippery stuff normaly bacause it typically has a covering of sand or dust or grit. Our biggest and most common obstacles are washed out or deeply rutted trails/hills, rocks, holes, etc. Getting seriously cross axled is probably our most common cause of losing traction.

------ Follow up post added April 28th, 2010 04:40 PM ------

Before I get into explaining how this thing works, I should mention that there are threads running about this on the IH8MUD and DWEB forums and I am running a parallel one on our local club email list. The IH8MUD thread started 1st because a guy who ordered one for his Toyota (Mud is a Toyota Site) posted up to ask about it before he had received it. Since its brand new and few people read Portuguese then the comments that started coming back where pretty negative or 'don't know' based. I was asked to go help out by porsing up some facts on its operation and my experiences with having one installed. The DWEB thread I understand is because of this one and the Mud one and is being posted to by a friend of mine who was at the Expo, met the Kaiser guys, played around with the demo unit and has seen mine in operation on and off road.

I waited to post this thread and the one on our club list because I wanted some time to really test out the unit before making any comment. If I hadn't liked it then you wouldn't be reading this and I wouldn't have posted up anywhere. I have had it in 2 weeks now and have a few hundred miles under it in different conditions. I felt comfortable enough to decide that it was doing what it suggested on paper and that it should be of interest to the people here in our local LR club. Since this and our club are my sandbox then I wasn't going to put my name to comments on something that I felt was a POS unless it was to say it was a POS.

The guys who are selling this in the US (The Expeditioneers) are a good bunch of guys who organize and run international expeditions and media support operations (They helped to support the Top Gear Bolivia episode and the Bolivian G4 section for example). They also sell expedition and vehicle upgrade products. They only sell stuff that they are comfortable with. Since the sales side is not their main business they don't want o be stuck trying to support a bunch of shit out there and a ton of upset customers. To try and avoid this, they like to test out products as much as possible before they commit or recommend them. Since they don't have a D90 in their fleet, they asked me to test it in mine.

Nothing kills a new product quicker than bad press or word of mouth in small circles like ours. If that bad mouthing is based on lack of understanding, little or no fact and no actual experience then I don't think it is fair. This is a good product that deserves a chance as I believe it overcomes some of the inherent problems with some of the other stuff out there and it gives us another option when we are looking to upgrade our trucks. Not suggesting that it is the best thing to hit the market since sliced bread but it is pretty good. There are plans forming to try and get it tested and written about in the press, to improve the information on the net (They are trying to get the Portuguese site translated) and to generally improve the info out there for people. But it's only been on sale here for just over a week. As far as we know I have the 1st one fitted (certainly to a LR) and it will take time to get out there properly. We in the LR community where selected to be the 'guinea pigs' because there is such a large LR market in Brazil and they have a good understanding of the vehicles and know that many of us will test it to extremes.

Hope this helps with the background a little.

Now I will start a new post on the operation as promised.

Thanks

Ian
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Old April 28th, 2010, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
What I would like to see is a Torsen with a manual locking feature...

Torsen T2-R does it with pre-load springs. You can also lightly apply the brakes when one wheel up to provide the base torque required to get the planted wheel driving....but you have to use your third leg to do this if your clutching and gasing.....

Funny, I was just wondering - literally yesterday - what it would take to get a Torsen into my D. Used one years ago in a race car and always like the design and performance.
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Old April 28th, 2010, 09:48 PM
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Thx for waiting here is the 'operation' essay..... :)

Ok, time to try and explain how this thing works. I will do my best but trying to explain in just words how something like this works can be tricky and something that seems clear to me may not be so to the person who is reading. So if it's still clear as mud, just post up and I will try and re-explain whatever I fumbled the 1st time. I am sorry if it comes across as a bit 'kindergartenish' in places but if I don't explain it all then it just causes confusion or misunderstanding and I am trying to keep it as simple as I can.

Take a look at the exploded diagram I have attached below. You can also take a look at the video posted in one of the posts above but be careful as it's wrong. The movement and operation of the bearings is reversed in the video to how it actually works so it is confusing. When it shows you the picture for straight line it then shows the bearing set up for overrun and when it shows you the picture of turning it then shows you the bearing position for locked drive.

Back to the diagram. Parts 1, 5, 8 and 9 go together to form the carrier. This replaces the stock carrier and spider gear set up in your diff. The ring holes in the end of part 1 you can see are for a whole mess of bolts that hold it to part 5. There are another set through part 9 into 5 from the other side (over engineered maybe?). Part 8 goes around 5 and between 1 and 9 to form the outer case. What you end up with looks like the pic of my 3rd below. You transfer your existing ring gear (so you can take your 4.10s or whatever with you) and either replace or transfer your carrier bearings. The whole thing then bolts into the Rover Diff Housing the same as the Rover Diff Carrier did. No need to remove or touch the Pinion. The holes around the outside of part 5 and the groove are for oil flow. Parts 2, 3, 4, 6 & 7 go inside of part 5 (we'll come back to them). The final bit is part 10. Not shown in the exploded diagram but shown in red on the bottom one. There are 2 halves to it. 1 half fits around part 2, the other around part 6 and they go inside part 5 as well. Finally your driveshafts go through the holes in the middle of parts 1 and 9 and engage in parts 2 and 7 (center splined holes).

For clarity and to try and keep the word count down a little I am going to refer to parts 2 and 6 as the 'Drive Units', part 10 as the 'Cage', part 5 as the 'Carrier' and parts 3 and 7 as the 'Bearings'.

Remember that your driveshafts are engaged with the Drive Units (parts 2 and 7). If these drive units turn then they turn your shafts and subsequently your wheels. These drive units are not connected to each other and they are not connected to anything else. They are totally independent and separated from each other by part 4 (Slip Washer) and held in place by the friction discs you can see on the inside of part 9 and that you can't see on part 1.

So that's it 'rebuilt', how does it work?

The Drive units have a ring of bearings (30 per side, parts 3 and 7) around the outside. These bearings are centered over and sitting in the shallow grooves you can see around the outside edges of the Drive Units. The bearings are surrounded by and held in the grooves by the cages (Part 10) and are located inside the deeper grooves that you can see on the inside of the Carrier (Part 5).

As your prop shaft turns the flange on your diff that is connected to your Pinion Gear, this turns the Ring Gear that is connected to the Carrier Housing at part 9. This starts to turn the Carrier housing. Since the housing is all bolted together with the gross of bolts through the ends, when the housing turns, so does the carrier. As the carrier starts to turn the bearings around the drive units are moving away from the direction of rotation towards the back of the grooves on the carrier. If you look carefully at these grooves in the carrier you will notice that they have sloped sides and are symmetrical. As the carrier rotates across the bearings and they move towards the back of the groove in the carrier they meet this 'slope'. There is not enough room for the bearing to go under the bottom edge of the slope, so the slope effectively pushes the bearing down into the drive unit. Since the drive unit groove is shallow and the bearing is already sitting at the bottom of it (held in place by the cage) there is nowhere for the bearing to go. So the drive unit is forced to turn with the carrier. This happens to both drive units independently through its own set of bearings. Since the groove on the carrier is symmetrical, the same thing happens in both directions (forward and reverse). There is a very small amount of slop or play based on the width of the groove in the carrier.

So the carrier is now being turned by the engine at input speed and the trapped bearings are forcing the drive units to also turn at carrier speed. The wheels are now both turning at prop shaft input speed in the direction of rotation. Neither wheel can go slower than the speed at which the carrier is turning and neither wheel can be 'driven' faster by the carrier than the other. Effectively it's locked up and driving both wheels. If you lift a wheel or a wheel loses traction then it will continue to be turned at the same speed as the other in the same way as any other locked diff would do. So no wheel spin unless both wheels break traction.

Great! So the 1% of the time that we have a need for both wheels to turn at exactly the same speed due to a loss of traction or because we got some 'air' then we are covered and this thing will do what any other locker does and lock up our wheels to drive input and get us out of that mud hole or through that cross axle situation. but what about the other 99% of the time when our wheels are traveling at different speeds and locking them together would either force them to fight for the available traction, skid over the ground or detonate something in our driveline?

Consider this. It's very, very rare for both wheels on the same axle to be traveling at exactly the same speed. Things like uneven tire pressures, undulations in the ground/road surface, turning, etc. all cause the wheels to travel different distances to each other in the same time frame. Therefore one wheel is typically traveling at a faster speed than the other at any given time. Normally the speed difference is very minor but it is there. It's common to think of this for the front 'steering' axle but the same situation exists on the rear as well, just to a lesser extent. This is what causes a Detroit for example to suddenly 'unload' while traveling along an otherwise straight dry road with no warning. If you get into a situation where the wheels travel different distances on the same side over a period then you get 'wind up' or a situation where the combined amount of difference travelled causes the diff to be forced to unload because its maximum amount of 'play' or tolerance is met. This is why most people don't fit Detroit's to the front and 'put up' with it suddenly unloading on the back. It's also why you don't lock your ARB or selectable locker while driving down the road or round bends and why you have to be careful to only turn it on when you need it and turn it off as soon as you clear the low traction situation. The selectable locker can't 'unload' so the next weakest point in the driveline has to give or the tires need to scrub to relieve this pressure.

So here is where the Kaiser is different and better in my opinion (take that for what it's worth ...).

We know that the wheels are locked up by the force of the turning carrier acting on the bearings and pushing them down into the grooves on the drive units. In a situation where the wheels are traveling at different speeds for the same distance of vehicle travel then one wheel must turn faster to get there. This faster wheel will now apply force to try and turn the drive unit faster than it is being turned by the carrier. As the force is now being applied by the drive unit to the bearings rather than by the carrier, it cause the bearings to lift up the sides of the shallow grooves in the drive unit and into the deeper grooves in the carrier. Since the deeper grooves in the carrier are deep enough to allow the drive unit to pass under the bearing then the drive unit is now free to turn as fast as it wants (overrun). So whether this speed difference is minimal (uneven road, tire pressure, etc.) or major (outside wheel in a bend, etc.), the drive unit is free to rotate as much as it wants for as long as it wants as long as it is turning faster than the carrier. As soon as the speed of the wheels starts to become matched again, the slope in the groove on the carrier and the pressure from the cage will force the bearings down into the grooves on the drive unit and drive will eventually be reconnected. Again this happens independently for each wheel in either direction and is based on input from the ground only.

This is great for turning corners or for matching travel distance between wheels. There is nothing to 'wind up' in the mechanism as its essentially a freewheel as long as it's faster. The cage force is less than the drag force needed to turn a trans in neutral (see my wheels up/down example in my earlier post) so the 'input' to the driveline is almost nonexistent. But what happens if both wheels want to do it at the same time? Think Engine braking in a hill descent or applying a transmission brake when parking on a hill. It wouldn't be pretty. So this is where the cage comes into play again. If you look at the diagram of the cage you will see it is in 2 halves. The two halves are connected together but allow a small amount of 'slide' in relation to each other. The cage will allow both wheels to be in the 'locked' position and either wheel to be in the 'overrun' position. It will not allow both wheels to be in 'overrun'. It will always hold one set of bearings under the 'slope' of the carrier and thereby keep one wheel locked to drive. So you still have engine breaking on a hill descent the same as you would normally and the parking brake works (I've tried both).

It's this very minimal input required for overrun and this lack of ability to become 'wound up' that makes this unit usable in either axle. That's what the design and my experience with the rear says anyway. As I said, I don't have one in the front yet so I can't speak from experience but I will follow up once I have the front one fitted and have tried it out.

So that's it. That how it works. You're probably going to do what we did now and go off and try and think up a bunch of scenarios that it won't work in (you will come up with some but they will typically be ones where ANY diff locker is detrimental. Slippery side slope, loss of traction on the driven wheel in a hill descent to think of 2). I also went off and tried to confuse it or cause it to fail. Drove around in circles, figure 8s, ovals, up and down washed out sandy rutted hills, 'practiced Baja runs' though twisty soft sandy washes, climbed rocks and generally set out to see what it did. Even had a situation where I had to tow a D1 on a strap 60 miles on mostly freeways when it broke down. It did all of that and more so far with no fuss, no noise, no bumps, scrubs or chirps. So I drank the Kool Aid......

Crap, I just read back through all that and I really was on my soap box wasn't I? Fingers hurt too... I am not changing it now though so I will post it up. Bound to be some questions, so post em up and I will see if I can answer them.

Laters

Ian
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  #12  
Old April 28th, 2010, 10:04 PM
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John B.
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So why would this be better than a Detroit (which cost a lot less)? What other lockers have YOU PERSONALLY used?
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  #13  
Old April 28th, 2010, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
So why would this be better than a Detroit (which cost a lot less)? What other lockers have YOU PERSONALLY used?
PERSONALLY? I have used ARBs and Detroits but not in this truck.

I also wheel with a lot of guys who use all sorts of lockers but primarily Detroits, Trutracs and mostly ARBs. I see them perform (or not) regularly and get a good idea of their failings.

Ask BHARRIS if his experience with his Trutrac this weekend was fun (With this one or a Detroit type or ARB type he wouldn't have lost drive on that front axle). Hang on.... He can't put a Detroit in his front axle can he? It might unload and dump him in a ditch on a bend somewhere... So we'll leave it as this one or a selectable locker.

Let me give you another example. Went out wheeling this past Sunday with a group of 3 friends. The other 3 trucks where D1s. 2 of the D1s where 'fully' locked up with ARBs. I say 'fully' because one had a failty compressor and couldn't use either of his lockers, the other had a leak in his front air line so only had the rear. Admitedly that is an unusual situation and both may have 'fixed' their issues if we where heading out to run a tougher trail, but because we where only heading out to a play area to PERSONALLY do some more testing on on the ONE I HAVE INSTALLED and compare it to what WE know of other lockers in operation they didn't bother. The area we where going has a main trail that can be driven in a car but lots of 'Play' areas and tougher sections where we could try out some different scenarios.

As I said. I wouldn't post up here or on my local club list until I had tested this thing and was happy it was doing what it was supposed to. I am not looking at a picture and dreaming up what it may or may not do. I am driving one and testing it.

------ Follow up post added April 28th, 2010 08:04 PM ------

OK, I admit it I am getting touchy......

I have had a bunch of people over the last few days 'ASSURE' me that it can't do this or that and there is 'NO WAY' it does what I say it does, that it is one of 'THESE' or one of 'THOSE', etc., etc. aand that I am full of shit basicaly when I am the one driving the truck with it in.

Suffice to say, it does work. Eventually there will be more people out there with 1st hand experience and magazine articles and a working web site with better diagrams/videos that isn't in Portugese and so on.

I will seal up the holes in the flame suit and keep my cool. It is a really good product and I don't want it to get a bunch of bad 'Urban Legend' Crap out there just because people don't understand it or because it's new. It will speak for itself over time I think but I would like to see it get a fair shake of the stick so I will keep plugging.

No it isn't cheap. Its not that expensive though and as they settle in and hopefully sell more the price will probably come down in time or the difference get smaller just as with anything else. It IS built like a tank though (look at the thickness of the end plates to the carrier in my 3rd pic or the number of bolts used as I mentioned before) so its not some POS from China. Also taking into consideration any other mods or bits you would have to fit or soon probably need to fit or replace might make the price difference easier to swallow.

Laters

Ian
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  #14  
Old April 28th, 2010, 11:22 PM
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John B.
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I cannot see how it will work any different in a front than a Detroit or similar. The problem is that under power, you can't steer. If you think you can, you have never driven a truck with a front locker...

In my personal experience, the Detroit (in the rear) just works. Never unloads strangely, never does anything strange, just works. It unlocks smoothly and quietly. How will this work better? I'm sure this new one works great and as well, but at double the cost, there needs to be some real justifiable benefits.
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  #15  
Old April 28th, 2010, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
I cannot see how it will work any different in a front than a Detroit or similar. The problem is that under power, you can't steer. If you think you can, you have never driven a truck with a front locker...

In my personal experience, the Detroit (in the rear) just works. Never unloads strangely, never does anything strange, just works. It unlocks smoothly and quietly. How will this work better? I'm sure this new one works great and as well, but at double the cost, there needs to be some real justifiable benefits.

I have only ever had an ARB in the front of one of my own vehicles so I've never driven with a 'full time' front locker, true. My experience with a Detroit in the rear though and those I have seen in operation on other truck is different to yours. It can and often does get 'wound up' by certain sequences of road or trail conditions. When it 'lets go' (drive halves overcome spring pressure and slip), it typically does so with a sound like a pistol shot and often causes you to need ot change underwear.....

I guess your not considering the forces in play if you think this 'won't' work. All that matters is that the wheels are free to overrun. The 'inner' wheel in the turn is the driven one. The outer one is rotating faster and is therefore freewheeling essentially. Anyway, we will soon see once I have the front one fitted. I am in no doubt it will work. What I am waiting to find out is how 'well' it works. The Kaiser guys assure me that they have them front and rear on many, many different vehicles out there with no problems. Including their shop 90.

laters

Ian
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  #16  
Old April 29th, 2010, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
I have only ever had an ARB in the front of one of my own vehicles so I've never driven with a 'full time' front locker, true. My experience with a Detroit in the rear though and those I have seen in operation on other truck is different to yours. It can and often does get 'wound up' by certain sequences of road or trail conditions. When it 'lets go' (drive halves overcome spring pressure and slip), it typically does so with a sound like a pistol shot and often causes you to need ot change underwear.....

I guess your not considering the forces in play if you think this 'won't' work. All that matters is that the wheels are free to overrun. The 'inner' wheel in the turn is the driven one. The outer one is rotating faster and is therefore freewheeling essentially. Anyway, we will soon see once I have the front one fitted. I am in no doubt it will work. What I am waiting to find out is how 'well' it works. The Kaiser guys assure me that they have them front and rear on many, many different vehicles out there with no problems. Including their shop 90.

laters

Ian
Are you "involved" in the locker as in, part of the company making or selling it? If you are, I have advise for you, if not rock it and report back.
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  #17  
Old April 29th, 2010, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Buckon37s View Post
Are you "involved" in the locker as in, part of the company making or selling it? If you are, I have advise for you, if not rock it and report back.

Hi Buck,

No I am not involved in any of the companies. The guys who are selling it here in the US are based locally out of Phoenix. I got reffered to them initially by a friend who was a friend as they needed a D90 to test this thing out. The 1st ones that where going to be available where for Rovers and they didn't have one at the moment. They wanted a D90 to put one in and have somebody go out and beat it up then give them feedback on it, thay also needed a truck for the stand at the Expo to use as a demo and as a backdrop for the Kaiser guys. Kaiser sent a Sales guy and an Engineer over with a table mounted demo unit to help demo it at the Expo. I lent them my truck for the Expo and then agreed to go test it and let them know whether it was a POS so they could drop it and run away or worth selling.

Its nopt a POS in my opinion and when the 1st posts started coming up on the Mud site with people starting to blast it with no idea what it was or how it worked I started posting to put some 'facts' out there based on my testing of it.

I put it up on here because I really beleive its a good set up and would be a good consideration for anybody who is considering fitting lockers or replacing lockers on their Rover. I am reserving judgement on the front somewhat of course until I get one in and try it out but on paper and based on our 'grilling' of the Kaiser guys it should work OK.

But I have nothing to gain or lose from any sales or lack off.

Thanks

Ian
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  #18  
Old April 29th, 2010, 01:28 AM
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It seems like a viable competitor, especially as the price comes down. I look forward to seeing what diffs it will be available to fit and the cost as well as more feedback...
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  #19  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:00 PM
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They have them up on their website now.

Website:
http://store.expeditioneers.com/kaiserlocker.html
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  #20  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:03 PM
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They have them up on their website now.

Website:
http://store.expeditioneers.com/kaiserlocker.html
Maybe this is covered earlier but I don't like to read all that much. How can it be a "100% locker in extreme conditions" when it unlocks automatically? Seems impossible.
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