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  #161  
Old March 29th, 2011, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman View Post
Why is installing an ARB carrier more labor intensive? Because you have to drill a hole?

....and switches do not add to the expense of the ARB. Switches, solenoids, air-line, etc.. are included in the price.
Got a shop price on installing an ARB into a 3rd recently? Its 1-2hrs for a basic carrier swap for something like a Detroit/TTT/Kaiser and 2-3 for an ARB per 3rd depending on the shop and how long they leave it on leakdown test for (assuming they bother). Shop rates round here run from about $75ph up. We had a guy here localy who got raped recently when he paid nearly $2k for a pair of ARBs and a compressor to be installed in a D2 and that was with the ARBs already installed in 3rds so it was just a swap out. He's still walking kind of funny.

I was talking about Pnuematic switches if you were going to use a fully CO2 setup not the Carling Switches that come with the lockers for the normal air/electric set up.

Yes I know you'd fit your own, yes I know you wouldn't pay that much even if you did take them to a shop. But like it or not you're in the minority and we're talking about the guy who doesn't have the tools/ability to install them himself and would take them to a shop and get them installed.

I still think its a valid argument to consider the total cost of the different locker options with all their associated parts and stuff that are needed to make them ready to rock and roll, not just the cost to buy them in a box.

All that said, I am not arguing that the Kaiser is not pricy. Its new, but it is starting to come down in price as you would expect it to.
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  #162  
Old March 29th, 2011, 10:34 PM
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Actually, yes, I have checked the price of install. It's $198.00 and that includes new bearings all the way around.
http://lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=2169
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  #163  
Old March 29th, 2011, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Got a shop price on installing an ARB into a 3rd recently? Its 1-2hrs for a basic carrier swap for something like a Detroit/TTT/Kaiser and 2-3 for an ARB per 3rd depending on the shop and how long they leave it on leakdown test for (assuming they bother). Shop rates round here run from about $75ph up. We had a guy here localy who got raped recently when he paid nearly $2k for a pair of ARBs and a compressor to be installed in a D2 and that was with the ARBs already installed in 3rds so it was just a swap out. He's still walking kind of funny.

I was talking about Pnuematic switches if you were going to use a fully CO2 setup not the Carling Switches that come with the lockers for the normal air/electric set up.

Yes I know you'd fit your own, yes I know you wouldn't pay that much even if you did take them to a shop. But like it or not you're in the minority and we're talking about the guy who doesn't have the tools/ability to install them himself and would take them to a shop and get them installed.

I still think its a valid argument to consider the total cost of the different locker options with all their associated parts and stuff that are needed to make them ready to rock and roll, not just the cost to buy them in a box.

All that said, I am not arguing that the Kaiser is not pricy. Its new, but it is starting to come down in price as you would expect it to.

Dude,

I really don't want to pound on you about this, but you have got to stop posting rediculous shit about the other lockers on the market. Talk about how awesome the Kaiser is or whatever, but when you start in (again) talking nonsense about arb it destroys any credibility you have.

C02 is dirt cheap. Installing is the same. A selectable locker will always and forever be superior to an auto locker. That is what it is and there is no way around it. Let it go and tell everyone why it is twice the locker a detroit is. You are in a hole, stop digging!
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  #164  
Old March 29th, 2011, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman View Post
Actually, yes, I have checked the price of install. It's $198.00 and that includes new bearings all the way around.
http://lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=2169
Dan, so locally I can pay $75-$150 for a Carrier Install and $150-$225 for an ARB without shipping. Looks like we're about the same on the ARB to me.

I've had 2 Kaisers and an ARB put into 3rds and set up in the last year (I don't have a press so I had a shop do them).

What are we arguing about?

Buck,

Not trying to bash the ARB (I have one). But Dan is asking about the price variable again so I am answering with what I have experienced. The point keeps being made that the Kaiser and ARB are the same price and I disagree. Besides the fact that there are at least 2 places now were the Kaiser is advertised for less (quite a bit less in one case) than the ARBs I still keep having to justify that position.

Yes a CO2 set up is cheap unless you run a dedicated bottle but a pneumatic only activation set up does still have a cost and I think it should be considered.

If you are able to buy the ARB off the shelf and install and set it up yourself, if you already have most of an activation system (compressor or CO2 set up) then the price difference between and ARB and the Kaiser is not very big unless you order it from overseas. But most either won't already have an activation system or won't be able/willing to install themselves so the price difference climbs. Thats the point I keep trying to make. Not that one is better or worse than the other.

The ARB is a great locker and very competativly priced for us here in the US. It does have its foibles but overall its a nice peice of kit. However, installed in most peoples truck its more expensive than a Kaiser.

The Kaiser is more expensive than a Detroit (it should be, its better) but cheaper (fitted and working) than an ARB (just not a lot cheaper if you already have most of the external bits and or install yourself). Isn't that a fair statement?

Laters

Ian
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  #165  
Old March 30th, 2011, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
The Kaiser is more expensive than a Detroit (it should be, its better) but cheaper (fitted and working) than an ARB (just not a lot cheaper if you already have most of the external bits and or install yourself). Isn't that a fair statement?

Laters

Ian
This is a fair statement. Stick with the good points of the Kaiser.

I built my CO2 system for $50. Air actuated switches can be sourced cheap, and the install is the same cost or should be. Again, talk facts and people will give the Kaiser a shot. Cheers
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  #166  
Old March 30th, 2011, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Buckon37s View Post
talk facts
Tryin' to. Didn't say anything different in that last post to what I had said already in the 3 or 4 before it.

Laters

Ian
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  #167  
Old March 30th, 2011, 04:34 AM
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What is obtainable with a selectable locker (ARB or else) is not obtainable with an automatic one.

Think about those situations when You need to have the differential locked to help the rotation of the front (or rear) of the vehicle. With an automatic locker You may experience an "unlock" (Detroit) or a "soft override" (Kaiser) but the end is the same: You have not a locked differential! With a selectable locker You can choose to have it locked and use it when You decide, even stressing a little halfshafts and CVs (that I assume are reinforced ones on a vehicle equipped with lockable differentials...).

On the other side, think at those situations when You need to have the differential (or one of them) NOT locked and the grip is too poor that nor the Kaiser nor the Detroit nor anything else can disengage. I'm thinking at icy situations or pressed snow (almost slippery as ice).

In simple words, an automatic solution (as the Kaiser is) is a compromise (we can discuss on how good this compromise is, but it's always a compromise) if compared to a selectable locker, because can't make what a selectable can do: let You decide IF lock, WHEN lock and WHAT lock.

So: I don't know the prices of ARB or Kaiser in each US State, but a general rule could be this: if You can pay a Kaiser a lot less than an ARB it can be a good idea to consider it as an alternative. But keep in mind it's a compromise if compared to a selectable one.

I can't understand why should be much expensive to install an ARB: is it so difficult to make a good quality hole in the Land Rover differential carrier?

About the cost of the compressor needed to activate the ARBs... You can use whatever air source able to produce 4bar (I don't know what do You use as pressure unit of measure, axcuse me) of pressure, even a small compressor You can buy at Your local market or mall while making shopping with Your wife/girl or DIY shop. Here in Itaky You can buy one of these "toys" for about 10 $. Are You frightened by the idea that it can fail? Buy two of them! 20 $ is the extra cost needed to operate 1 or 2 ARBs ;-)

This, of course, if You don't want to buy an OBA system of good quality (I think it's mandatory, almost a "first upgrade" as specific tyres).

IMHO: nothing can replace a selectable locker. Perhaps may have a chance those hybrid differentials like KAM: LSD ones with the manual lockable option. But the cost is very high...
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  #168  
Old March 30th, 2011, 03:24 PM
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Expeditioneers is the company that sold me the Kaisers. Those guys were extremely supportive throughout this whole ordeal, and they completely refunded my money. Expeditioneers sells a lot of things related to Defenders and expeditions. They are an honest bunch of guys and I will continue to deal with them in the future. Service after the sale is alive and well at Expeditioneers.
Glad to hear that, sounds like a very squared away crew
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  #169  
Old March 31st, 2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Dan, so locally I can pay $75-$150 for a Carrier Install and $150-$225 for an ARB without shipping. Looks like we're about the same on the ARB to me.
You're an idiot.

Let me know where you can get a full set of bearings for "$75.00 to $150.00"....much less the install on top of it.
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  #170  
Old March 31st, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dchapman View Post
You're an idiot.

Let me know where you can get a full set of bearings for "$75.00 to $150.00"....much less the install on top of it.
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  #171  
Old March 31st, 2011, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dchapman View Post
You're an idiot.

Let me know where you can get a full set of bearings for "$75.00 to $150.00"....much less the install on top of it.
from your post...
"Actually, yes, I have checked the price of install. It's $198.00 and that includes new bearings all the way around.
http://lucky8llc.com/Products.aspx?ProductID=2169"

who's the idiot...so there's got to be a labor charge included
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  #172  
Old March 31st, 2011, 09:57 PM
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No Frank, Dan is right. I forgot to add the $30 or so for a couple of bearings. Also forgot the cost of packaging and shipping the 3rd to Justin and back and we got to make sure we dot every I and cross every T or Dan gets upset. So yes Dan lets include the cost of a pair of bearings into the mix. Still doesn't put us that far apart door to door now does it? Or should I include the gas to drive to the diff shop vs. having UPS pick it up as well? You're stretching the point again.

On another topic, I've asked around and it seems my experience in the prices of an ARB vs. a carrier swap install isn't typical. Most 'quote' the same so I was wrong, sorry. Maybe I'm just a cheap fuck and haggle a lot or something but every time I've had an ARB done it cost me more in shop time than a straight carrier switch. I've had 1 Detroit, 2 Kaisers and 3 ARBs done over the years and the ARBs have always cost me more in shop time. Maybe it's because I insist the shop does a full operation test and a leakdown test when I have an ARB done, or maybe it's just that 'hole', I don't know? So let's assume for the sake of this comparison that an ARB and Kaiser cost the same to install for most people?

Not that any of that matters as the point of the last couple of pages was that a selectable costs more fitted and working in the truck than a Kaiser does today. How much more or little depends on what you start out with and where you buy them from. If like many have suggested everybody is running around (or should be) with a full OBA system already set up then the extra might just be a handful of fittings. Or we could go and buy a cheapo 12v from Harbor Freight and stuff the needle adaptor in the end of the air line as was suggested as well (I think we have to have the girlfriend along to do that or something, can't remember?). The point being that a selectable requires an activation system of some sort and we may (or may not) have to allow for extra time and or money to modify our existing one (or add it if we don't have one) to the cost of the locker itself to get a fair comparison. Not that any of that matters of course as we've seen that a Kaiser is now available for less than an ARB anyway in some places.

Back a million words or so ago the point was made that a Kaiser should cost less than an ARB or other selectable. Well today it does in real terms. So what the crap are we still raising the word count on this for?

The idiot (for forgetting the cost of bearings when countering Dan even though it made no difference to the point being made).
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  #173  
Old March 31st, 2011, 10:24 PM
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No Frank, Dan is right. I forgot to add the $30 or so for a couple of bearings.
Should be four bearings, and that is what Dan is on about. Replacing the pinion bearings, setting pinion height and preload properly is not a 1-2 hour job. Swapping in the diff without touching the pinion is a half assed job.
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  #174  
Old May 14th, 2011, 10:55 AM
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So last night I finished the install of my Kaiser into my Salisbury. It's been sitting on my workbench all winter and Vittorio from Kaiser has been asking me if it's been installed yet and if I can offer any feedback. Finally I can begin moving forward.

The install was easy. Remove axles, remove the old diff (I read later that often we need a diff spreader to get these out but mine slid right out), pop off the ring gear and switch it over, cut off old bearings, swap spacers to new Kaiser, put Kaiser in freezer for 4 hours, put new bearings in toaster over at 450 for one hour, drop bearings onto Kaiser and hold. This is where i was nervous because I had no way to get the bearings off again should the backlash need adjustment. The new bearings did not come with outer races so I bought two new one which appeared to be much narrower so I re-used the old ones which was a smart move. They are responsible for positioning the diff left to right between the sides of the housing, anything less than these and I would have needed a pile of spacers, anything more and I would not have gotten the diff back in. As it was it ended up being a good tight fit, almost in need of a spreader but a small 2lb sledge and a block of oak and I tapped it in. Backlash was perfect so man did I get lucky.

This morning I'll fill it up with 90 weight and take it for a spin to make sure it wont explode on my road trip next week. If all is good then the front goes in this afternoon along with my castor corrected swivel housings and new shock turrets.

I am planning on hitting Quesnel Canyon Crawl next weekend so I can report back on how the setup worked in mud and generally very mucky conditions, not to mention how it did on 2000 km of highway to get there and back.
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  #175  
Old May 16th, 2011, 03:21 PM
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Hi Andy,

I would suggest running it for a week with just the rear fitted so when you put the front in, if you have any handling issues you will know better if it's the front or rear causing it, if you throw both in at the same time you will have much less idea what the causes are,

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  #176  
Old May 17th, 2011, 09:15 AM
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Dave, too late, sort of. I took it for a quick spin, about 5 km of open road and some corners before it ended up in the garage again for the front end. It behaved better than a detroit in the rear meaning the sudden oversteer in a corner when I let off the gas pedal was not so much there. It is a little but not something I need to be cautious of like the detroit. Now the scary part, a lot of work on the drivetrain and the test may be a 2000km journey to see if I got it right.
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  #177  
Old May 17th, 2011, 10:12 AM
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You have to be cautious when a Detroit is fitted?
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  #178  
Old May 17th, 2011, 12:12 PM
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That's interesting...my Detroit is quiet and doesn't do that...really can't even tell it's there
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  #179  
Old May 27th, 2011, 11:57 PM
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So I drove 2500Km on mostly pavement on this trip and for the most part it was all good. Seeing as how I did some castor correction I needed an alignment when I got to Grande Prairie because it wanted to pull right and I did see a bit of tow out on the right front. I was told that 'pulling' is resolved by adjusting castor and camber which aint gonna happen at Midas on a 110 so they just straightened out the wheel and it was 20 times better. With front and rear lockers it seems having your wheels point straight is a good thing. The truck drove nice a straight with no strange noises or mannerisms on the highway. Off road is was a dream. We had about an hour of greasy hill to climb out of a river valley in the rain and the 110 trudged along easily as rovers typically do. Open diffs would have been hazardous on this one. Two thumbs up for the Kaisers but any locker would have been equally good at this job.

The one area where I am concerned is in parking lots. If I am on the gas in 1st gear in a slow turn and depress the clutch the front end sounds and feels like it wants to self destruct. It's as though the Kaiser can't decide what to do with the outside wheel. Both CVs are in great condition so it shouldn't be that. If it was it would be doing it all the time, loaded or not. If I am steady on the gas in this turn the truck will tend to lightly lunge and relax, lunge and relax; sort of like I was feathering the gas pedal but I'm not. If I just stay into the gas with steady acceleration it works fantastic, don't know it's there, unless I decide to shift mid corner - then hold on and plug your ears.

None of this was evident with just the rear installed so it has to be the front.

There are a few of these out there now so if anyone has some input into this it would be appreciated. After 2500Km the gear oil should be well into the assembly.
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  #180  
Old May 28th, 2011, 09:23 AM
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The one area where I am concerned is in parking lots.

Both CVs are in great condition so it shouldn't be that.
Pretty much sounds like what I would expect when putting an auto-unlocker in the front. Now think what might happen off road in tight turns.

I hope you have put some chrome moly CVs up there with it.
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