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  #21  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:16 PM
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I didn't want to wear my fingers out typing all that either but there really isn't a quicker way to explain it properly to somebody who doesn't understand a diff very well. Since you obviously do and if I had to try and give you a 30,000' view I could say that it uses needle bearings around the outside of independent drive units inside the carrier. If the carrier is turning then slope sided grooves and a cage inside the carrier hold the bearings into grooves on the drive units and thus it is locked to drive direction. To allow overrun it can allow the bearings to rise up out of the grooves on the drive units so they can rotate faster than the carrier.

There is a bunch more associated to how it stops it happening to 2 wheels together and how the bearings 'rest' position is locked but that's the jist of it.

Help any?

Thanks

Ian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s View Post
Maybe this is covered earlier but I don't like to read all that much. How can it be a "100% locker in extreme conditions" when it unlocks automatically? Seems impossible.
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  #22  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
I didn't want to wear my fingers out typing all that either but there really isn't a quicker way to explain it properly to somebody who doesn't understand a diff very well. Since you obviously do and if I had to try and give you a 30,000' view I could say that it uses needle bearings around the outside of independent drive units inside the carrier. If the carrier is turning then slope sided grooves inside the carrier hold the bearings into grooves on the drive units and thus it is locked to dive direction. To allow overrun it can allow the bearings to rise up out of the grooves on the drive units so they can rotate faster than the carrier.

There is a bunch more associated to how it stops it happening to 2 wheels together and how the bearings 'rest' position is locked but that's the jist of it.

Help any?

Thanks

Ian
A little, yes. Thanks. But how does the diff know your not just doing a front dig or bound up?
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  #23  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:27 PM
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Its always locked to drive direction unless 1 wheel wants to turn faster than the driven input. The carrier grooves are deeper than those on the drive units so the breaings can be pushed up into them and clear the grooves on the drive units. But as soon as the carrier speed starts to 'catch up' with the wheel speed then drive is reinstated because the bearings are no longer being pushed up.

Its functionaly a lot like a Detroit but without the need to overcome the spring tension holding the drive members together. So its a lot smoother and 'apparently' smooth enough to work on the front (i'll let you know on that one in a week or so). It also can't get 'wound up' and suddenly release because there can't be any residual tension in the mechanism.

So to answer the question, it would be locked since neither wheel is being forced by the terrain to go faster than the other.

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A little, yes. Thanks. But how does the diff know your not just doing a front dig or bound up?
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  #24  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Its always locked to drive direction unless 1 wheel wants to turn faster than the driven input. The carrier grooves are deeper than those on the drive units so the breaings can be pushed up into them and clear the grooves on the drive units. But as soon as the carrier speed starts to 'catch up' with the wheel speed then drive is reinstated because the bearings are no longer being pushed up.

Its functionaly a lot like a Detroit but without the need to overcome the spring tension holding the drive members together. So its a lot smoother and 'apparently' smooth enough to work on the front (i'll let you know on that one in a week or so). It also can't get 'wound up' and suddenly release because there can't be any residual tension in the mechanism.
Ah ha! So you could have saved a lot of typing by simply saying: "It sucks like a detroit but it's quiter and probably won't break your shafts when it poops itself".

Interesting idea.
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  #25  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:40 PM
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Nope, cos in my opinion (worth much less than the going $0.02) and half the battle I have had trying to explain it to people is that it doesn't suck like a Detroit....


Hence all the typing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s View Post
Ah ha! So you could have saved a lot of typing by simply saying: "It sucks like a detroit but it's quiter and probably won't break your shafts when it poops itself".

Interesting idea.
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  #26  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:44 PM
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Nope, cos in my opinion (worth much less than the going $0.02) and half the battle I have had trying to explain it to people is that it doesn't suck like a Detroit....


Hence all the typing.
Another question,

What is an ARB going for now adays? What about a detroit? The ARB is the best of both worlds, if it can be had for less, I doubt there is any market for this. But maybe it is way more. Mine was $700 when I got it but that it for a 9in.
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  #27  
Old April 30th, 2010, 06:56 PM
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Checked a couple of days ago and on EE ARBs are pushing $1k nearly uninstalled without the compressor and stuff. Detroits from Summit where just south of $600 somewhere for a full carrier one in the box.

I don't agree (anymore) on the ARBs. Too many people I know suffer problems with compressor failures, lines leaking, solenoids going out, etc.

Till I got this and decided it was doing what they said it did I was ARB all the way. Now I look around and back and see just how many times people I know with ARBs cant/couldn't use them because of something that isn't working or are scared to use them in certain situations for fear of busting up the driveline due to uneven terrain or a bend in the obstacle line or something or did bust something because there was no give in the ARB when they needed it.

Thats why I got such a hard on for this thing. It seems to be a 'fit it and forget' it option without the BS of a Detroit and the ancilliary crap of an ARB. We'll see if it's any good in the front and if it is then I am set as far as I am concerned till my 33s need replacing with the planned 35s, then i'll beef up the shafts and CVs.

For people who don't have the money to buy a full on HD set up or a Toy conversion or something but want lockers then I think its a good option. Not cheap but not a bad option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s View Post
Another question,

What is an ARB going for now adays? What about a detroit? The ARB is the best of both worlds, if it can be had for less, I doubt there is any market for this. But maybe it is way more. Mine was $700 when I got it but that it for a 9in.
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  #28  
Old April 30th, 2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Checked a couple of days ago and on EE ARBs are pushing $1k nearly uninstalled without the compressor and stuff. Detroits from Summit where just south of $600 somewhere for a full carrier one in the box.

I don't agree (anymore) on the ARBs. Too many people I know suffer problems with compressor failures, lines leaking, solenoids going out, etc.

Till I got this and decided it was doing what they said it did I was ARB all the way. Now I look around and back and see just how many times people I know with ARBs cant/couldn't use them because of something that isn't working or are scared to use them in certain situations for fear of busting up the driveline due to uneven terrain or a bend in the obstacle line or something or did bust something because there was no give in the ARB when they needed it.

Thats why I got such a hard on for this thing. It seems to be a 'fit it and forget' it option without the BS of a Detroit and the ancilliary crap of an ARB. We'll see if it's any good in the front and if it is then I am set as far as I am concerned till my 33s need replacing with the planned 35s, then i'll beef up the shafts and CVs.

For people who don't have the money to buy a full on HD set up or a Toy conversion or something but want lockers then I think its a good option. Not cheap but not a bad option.
Arb is the shit, what you run into are people who don't know how to service them. If you can get this to compete with a detroit it could be great. Good luck.
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  #29  
Old April 30th, 2010, 08:24 PM
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KAM, $800. No air line problems.

Sorry, as mentioned earlier, the cost needs to be the same as a Detroit or it won't sell. At $900, you might as well get a manual locker.

Most (modern) ARB failures are the fault of the installer. There is always Maxi-drive, KAM or Mcnamara as well. These don't have control failure problems.
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  #30  
Old May 1st, 2010, 01:40 AM
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Except for when the bolt falls out of the con rod to piston, the o-ring in the resovoir fails, an air line or fitting leaks, solenoid ups and quits, not to mention the host of Lucas gremlins in the average LR that can stop it (or any of the E-Lockers you mention) getting power to begin with and so on (all failures I have experienced or friends have). Damn those installers!!....

Anyway we're flogging a dead horse here and I actually like the ARB. Before this it was a no brainer as being the way to go for me on this truck. Now I think its about the same or maybe even worse with the the potential for failure out on the trail but that's just my worthless $0.02 again.

What I stick to though is that the Kaiser is not a Detroit. The Detroit has (lets be nice) 'quirks' in its design and operation that the Kaiser doesn't suffer from. And the Kaiser design (on paper at least) is much stronger (time will have to be the real judge on that though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
KAM, $800. No air line problems.

Sorry, as mentioned earlier, the cost needs to be the same as a Detroit or it won't sell. At $900, you might as well get a manual locker.

Most (modern) ARB failures are the fault of the installer. There is always Maxi-drive, KAM or Mcnamara as well. These don't have control failure problems.
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  #31  
Old May 1st, 2010, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ipgregory View Post
Except for when the bolt falls out of the con rod to piston, the o-ring in the resovoir fails, an air line or fitting leaks, solenoid ups and quits, not to mention the host of Lucas gremlins in the average LR that can stop it (or any of the E-Lockers you mention) getting power to begin with and so on (all failures I have experienced or friends have). Damn those installers!!....

Anyway we're flogging a dead horse here and I actually like the ARB. Before this it was a no brainer as being the way to go for me on this truck. Now I think its about the same or maybe even worse with the the potential for failure out on the trail but that's just my worthless $0.02 again.

What I stick to though is that the Kaiser is not a Detroit. The Detroit has (lets be nice) 'quirks' in its design and operation that the Kaiser doesn't suffer from. And the Kaiser design (on paper at least) is much stronger (time will have to be the real judge on that though).
Nobody who is serious about wheeling runs an ARB compressor. A small CO2 canister has none of the problems you are talking about. If this and ARB are priced the same this won't be marketable, as it falls way short of a selectable locker. If this is priced near a detroit then it has merit. Maybe even a lot of merit. Thats all were saying. Not trying to poop in your oatmeal, just saying what is obvious.
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  #32  
Old May 1st, 2010, 06:18 PM
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The Selectable Locker argument is a tough one. I think it is as good because it doesn't have to have an external activation system, whether that be a compressor, electrical or a hook up to a powertank. There is a potential for failure in all of them one way or another to a lesser or greater degree and my point has been that they can and do fail from time to time. Up against a Selectable I think it's a fair fight as installed this will be a cheaper solution. By the time you have purchased and installed the activation system (whatever it may be) this one is cheaper. Maybe a lot cheaper depending on how you are configured. It's a close race but since it's a cheaper solution I think it has a chance for a fair fight. There is no way it's going to take on ARB and the like overnight but I think it will be interesting to see what happens. A few of us are really interested to see what happens if it makes it into any of the pro trucks and gets used in anger.....

My primary contention is with those that keep insisting that since it's a permanent locker it should be priced the same as a Detroit. It isn't a Detroit, its better so why should it be priced the same? So far none of these people have come back and given me a good or even any design, operational or fact based argument as to why they insist it is no better than a Detroit or the like. They just keep insisting it. I have run a Detroit and I know a number of people who still do. I have never myself run a Trutrac but I know a number of people who do. I wheel with these trucks and I get to see and understand the limitation of these products.

Traditionally people typically install something like a Detroit/Trutrac set up instead of a Selectable because the Detroit/TT is cheaper (not always is this the factor but most of the time it is). That 'cheaper' comes with a 'cost' though. The Detroit is weak. Its basic design is that of a spider replacement (Lunchbox) unit although it is typically sold in a carrier. Its mechanism design suffers from residual tension that can build up and cause it to slip/engage. So you can't or shouldn't fit it to the front and you would likely install something like a Trutrac instead. The Trutrac is far from weak, others may be but they are LSDs not lockers. Because of this they require both wheels to operate. If you lose something on one side then you lose drive to that axle, the same as with an open set up. They also require the wheels to turn under drive at different speeds before they lock up.

This thing suffers from none of these problems based on my understanding of its design and my testing of it in my truck so far. It's a much stronger design than the Detroit, does not suffer residual tension in the mechanism, does not lose drive if one side goes out and does not allow the wheels to be driven by the driveline at different speeds yet allows the wheels to travel different distances if dictated by the ground.

So (in my opinion) it's better than a Detroit/Trutrac set up but cheaper than a Selectable. In effect there's now a 3rd horse in the traditional 2 horse race. Be interesting to see where it places.....

And if it really does work in the front then we have something we didn't have before and many keep insisting is 'impossible'. A 100% locker that works in a steering axle. Jury's out waiting for me to get off my ass and get it fitted and tested then I'll let you know on that one.

Laters

Ian
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  #33  
Old May 1st, 2010, 07:20 PM
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I've had my ARB's for a few years now and have never had a problem with them... I love them. I have the ARB compressor under my passenger seat and never had a problem with it either... Just my .02
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  #34  
Old May 1st, 2010, 09:31 PM
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Front 3rd is pulled. Will get it switched and re-fitted this week then start testing it.
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  #35  
Old May 2nd, 2010, 10:52 AM
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I am one of those Detroit/TruTrac cats and have not had issues. I got that combo on price more than any other reason. If I had the $$, I would have gone ARB or Mac. Knowing about these Kaisers, I may have considered them in lieu of the Detroit if the price was same/slightly more than the Detroit, but if it was even close to the ARB, I would go ARB for sure. Just something to pass on to the marketers of this product in this market.
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  #36  
Old May 2nd, 2010, 04:26 PM
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Thanks, I'll mention your comments when I go over to pick up my front this week.

Just out of interest, did you install them yourself or have a shop do it?

Thanks

Ian

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I am one of those Detroit/TruTrac cats and have not had issues. I got that combo on price more than any other reason. If I had the $$, I would have gone ARB or Mac. Knowing about these Kaisers, I may have considered them in lieu of the Detroit if the price was same/slightly more than the Detroit, but if it was even close to the ARB, I would go ARB for sure. Just something to pass on to the marketers of this product in this market.
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  #37  
Old May 11th, 2010, 04:39 PM
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Ian,
What is it called in Brazil? Do you have a link to their Portugese site?
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  #38  
Old May 11th, 2010, 10:24 PM
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Hi Dan,

No idea if they market it under Kaiser or something else over there. The company that makes them is called Nekarth. There is supposed to be a Portuguese site but I don't know the address. I know there were a bunch of Portuguese forum posts and stuff I found when I was first looking for stuff but since I don't speak Portuguese I didn't follow them. There is site at www.nekarth.com and it's in English but there isn't much info on there.

I know they were talking about making a site for the US and where working on translating it but it's not up yet I don't think.

Most of what I got, I got from talking to the guys who came over from Brazil for the Expo and from the guys at Expeditioneers here in Phoenix.

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Ian,
What is it called in Brazil? Do you have a link to their Portugese site?
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  #39  
Old May 13th, 2010, 02:49 AM
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This is the Brazilian site:

http://www.bloqueiokaiser.com.br/br/


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Ian,
What is it called in Brazil? Do you have a link to their Portugese site?
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  #40  
Old May 13th, 2010, 08:04 AM
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Or using google translate

http://translate.google.com/translat...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8

or

http://tinyurl.com/kaiserlocker

or for the paranoid

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kaiserlocker
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