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  #41  
Old June 24th, 2015, 09:20 PM
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bring us the land rover equivilent of a toyota 70 series land cruiser
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  #42  
Old June 24th, 2015, 10:51 PM
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The Defender had no hidden needs. Some suits had hidden needs though and decided that it wasn't lining their pockets fast enough. No fault of Defender at all. If Jeep can profitably produce and sell millions of Wranglers, then the Hidden Need of Rover is to hire competent engineers to figure that manufacturing mystery out.

Besides the obvious

Defender is almost perfectly ergonomic. 60+ yrs of evolution will do that. Perhaps add a bit more legroom? You've got a bunch of hotshot designers and execs who want to "start with a clean sheet of paper", make a real big name for themselves so they can go on to work for whoever else. Not going to get any heritage-worthy work out of those fools! They think they can out-design 50 yrs of evolution? Good luck with that!! The best move would be to bring the D back, and let a bunch of manufacturing engineers loose on it to figure out ways to manufacture it better. Designers should stay away, seriously.

okay
anyway...
less plastic
less RETRO
LESS computers! Let us drive (because driving is the fun part, DUH!!)
OPEN SORUCE IT! Sell us a freakin repair manual!
Remember, it is a T R U C K. Not an SUV and definitely not a Crossover. Fuck NO not a crossover.

Less cost! "Why does no one drive their 80k RR's off road?" GEE WHIZ I wonder why!?!?!?
And then when we can afford one, 5 yrs later they're so unreliable that we drop that whole wild idea. -There goes the whole idea of "Heritage", down the drain.
Don't give us another disposable fashion accessory (RR, Evoque) Don't give us an appliance. Don't force us into the same shitty modern product lifecycle. 5 yrs, then scrapped. NOONE wants that! yet thats where modern business has steered the auto world.

Give us STEEL, give us ALUMINIUM, give us RUBBER. Repairable and understandable because we like to feel that we are the kings of our domain.

give us something for us to take us away from our shitty jobs. something to let us explore our great country. we want to go camping, maybe get stuck in the mud, (Half of offroading is about getting out from crazy situations, real-life problem solving in situations that bring up the adrenaline!) We might set up camp in a rainstorm and drink beer and we want something genuine, something with value to support that. We want a mechanical companion for this stuff and we don't want to worry about rolling up the windows at night at the campsite. We don't need to conquer everest. We don't need 40" tires, we don't need it to be "Murdered out". No WiFI. No automatic anything. Fads come and go. Avoid trying to ride the waves of trend/fashion. Things like mud, rocks, hot/cold/sand etc never change.


Keep it simple through and through and you can't go wrong. Remember we don't want sizzle, we want a steak. Be leery of a team of designers. Overthinking / over designing by designers who have no idea about this stuff is dangerous. You strip the occasion of its real body, by keeping everything so safe, calculated and cushy.. Aesthetically you may end up with a DC100!

~Steve
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  #43  
Old June 24th, 2015, 11:39 PM
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Amen to that!
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  #44  
Old June 24th, 2015, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revtor View Post
the Hidden Need of Rover is to hire competent engineers to figure that manufacturing mystery out.e
They wouldn't pay for my work visa.
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  #45  
Old June 25th, 2015, 12:00 AM
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For those of you who have had an opportunity to drive a 2010+ defender I'm sure will agree. LR was doing a better job of dependable with modern touches yet 100% defender. As others have said why not figure out what jeep is doing to comply with eu and NAS regs and do it.
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  #46  
Old June 25th, 2015, 01:11 AM
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I am going to go back to the core question:

Quote:
I would like to know any particular challenges faced by Land Rover Defender owners when they take their vehicle off-road (examples: Human machine interface, ergonomic, psychological issues) and how would they like to see it improved.
I am just going to hit each of your examples....

HMI: The Defender (1997 and earlier since that's all we have) is an extremely simple interface. There really isn't anything to improve on, you know what the 12 buttons and switches do and there isn't much else. This would require knowing how the driveline systems function (for example, why you would engage a diff lock) in order to know what system to use in the first place. The D3 tried to fix this with terrain response, and as a 10 year owner of one I will admit it works very well. But to make it work requires 5 computers and 4 data bus networks. Stick with simple, and attempt to re-vitalize the "wheels" events that dealers perform to get new owners some "stick time". This helps continue a relationship with the dealer (which can equate to service $$ later) and may create new brand champions.

Ergonomics: Well, you don't buy a Defender for ergonomics. It may be the least ergonomic vehicle in modern history. Non-tilt steering wheel, window sills that are too high to rest an elbow on (and I'm 6'1"), atrocious center tunnel, no leg room, etc. But these are all trade offs to the *capability* of the vehicle. Windows are high so that dust and water don't come in as easily. Seats don't have much travel room because the rear may be a truck bed and not part of the interior cabin. Just 2 examples. Some ergonomics can most certainly be fixed. Instead of a bolt on A/C unit that doesn't really work anyway, have a combined heat/AC system like every other vehicle on the planet, and integrate the controls together. But keep the mechanical operation... you DON'T need a climate control computer to operate stepper motor controlled mixer doors and flappers to optimally cool the cabin. Keep it simple and cheap... cable operated mixer, simple fan speed selector, and an A/C engage button. Done.

Psychological issues: It's one simple problem with Land Rovers in the USA... price. Not very many people are going to purchase a $120,000 automobile and then potentially crunch it. I was an outlier, I bought the LR3 and had it in the dirt that weekend... Gordon's Well sand dunes the month after that, much to the enjoyment and amazement of many. If you have a vehicle that isn't going to cost an arm and a leg to repair, people are going to be willing to be adventurous. Ask any Rubicon or FJ owner. If they aren't constantly worried about banging up their blingmobile, I think most folks will actually make safer and more enjoyable decisions about spotting and obstacle crossings.

I have seen other people grumble about warranty issues after going offroad. I specifically asked the question, and actually read the fine print of the warranty before I purchased the LR3. Now, granted I am not a lawyer, but there was really nothing in there that prohibited off-road use... just protection against "abnormal use". Sure that's broad, but when I had EAS compressor issues a few months in after purchase, I brought in a mud covered, scuffed up LR3 and no one said anything about it other than "glad to see it's getting put to use". This was Land Rover Miramar in San Diego, California. I had a new compressor a few days later. Same with a failed rear locker assembly about a year after that, with even more scuffs, scrapes, and bruises. I never had an issue with warranty claims even though it was quite clear the truck had seen many miles off road.

In the end... if nothing else gets through to JLR... KEEP THE DEFENDER SIMPLE. I can dismantle my entire vehicle to the smallest parts with the simplest tools anywhere on the planet. I think most people understand that regulatory restrictions require some "modern conveniences" like engine computers, ABS, Traction Control, TPMS, etc. But at NO TIME should a failure of any of these systems strand you. Speed limit the vehicle, have a constant warning chime and light, fine... but do NOT leave me in the middle of nowhere simply because a line of software code has decided I need to see a dealer. This presents a large psychological barrier to really using the vehicle.

If the thought is to take the RR Evoque and put a "defenderesque" body on it, it will be an abomination that will only appeal to the same douchebags that buy AMG G-Wagens. Meanwhile Fiat will keep cranking out Rubicons and eat what little bit of the market the Defender still has, and the Land Rover marque's reputation as a rough and tumble partner in exploration and adenture will finally be totally destroyed.
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  #47  
Old June 25th, 2015, 01:58 AM
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Definition of "human machine interface"; hands on steering wheel at 3 & 6 o'clock. Occasionally removing one hand to grab shifter and change gears while simultaneously pushing clutch with left foot.
The vehicle and I are one. Fully interfaced.
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  #48  
Old June 25th, 2015, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuisC View Post
Definition of "human machine interface"; hands on steering wheel at 3 & 6 o'clock. Occasionally removing one hand to grab shifter and change gears while simultaneously pushing clutch with left foot.
The vehicle and I are one. Fully interfaced.
i call it driving..
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  #49  
Old June 25th, 2015, 09:33 AM
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This is silly. JLR is in the business of making stylish cars that sell, not capable ones. The Defender is not the future of JLR, the Evoque, range rover sport, freelander/discovery sport... and then the luxury land yachts like the Range Rover autobiography.

The whole off road/exploration thing is just heritage and history. JLR's current upscale client doesn't really care about off pavement performance, and JLR knows this. This client cares about toys and the latest gadgets, like smart phone controlled cars and invisible hoods.

If you want to know what you can do better from an off road perspective, just look to Jeep's line of "trail rated" badged rigs, or the $runner Trail / TRD pro, or the ford raptor, aor the dodge power wagon... there's a list of different manufacturers and a whole slew of different vehicles for different needs that or awesome off road. And most of them will best a modern rover.
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  #50  
Old June 25th, 2015, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily View Post
This is silly. JLR is in the business of making stylish cars that sell, not capable ones. The Defender is not the future of JLR, the Evoque, range rover sport, freelander/discovery sport... and then the luxury land yachts like the Range Rover autobiography.

The whole off road/exploration thing is just heritage and history. JLR's current upscale client doesn't really care about off pavement performance, and JLR knows this. This client cares about toys and the latest gadgets, like smart phone controlled cars and invisible hoods.

If you want to know what you can do better from an off road perspective, just look to Jeep's line of "trail rated" badged rigs, or the $runner Trail / TRD pro, or the ford raptor, aor the dodge power wagon... there's a list of different manufacturers and a whole slew of different vehicles for different needs that or awesome off road. And most of them will best a modern rover.
I disagree. If that is the case, then why would anyone buy a Range Rover at all? Why not just get that Jaguar or Bentley? What is unique about Land Rover that differentiates it from all the rest of the SUV's on the market? Why does Kim Kardashian choose a Range Rover when he F'd up possy can afford any Marque they want? And why keep permanent 4wd on Land Rover's then?
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  #51  
Old June 25th, 2015, 09:55 AM
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In their defense, JLR did produce the F-Type.
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  #52  
Old June 25th, 2015, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by navydevildoc View Post
Sure that's broad, but when I had EAS compressor issues a few months in after purchase, I brought in a mud covered, scuffed up LR3 and no one said anything about it other than "glad to see it's getting put to use". This was Land Rover Miramar in San Diego, California. I had a new compressor a few days later. Same with a failed rear locker assembly about a year after that, with even more scuffs, scrapes, and bruises. I never had an issue with warranty claims even though it was quite clear the truck had seen many miles off road.
For the secondhand market looking to drop $10-20k on a capable 4x4 to DD and go tooling around in, navydevildoc sums up the problem. Bottom line - when compared to Toyotas (4Runner, FJ, etc) and most any make, the reliably of the P38, LR3/4 is a farce. There is no way to sugar coat it unless you are comparing to a D1 or D2. The broader market place knows this. However, I don't think people who drop $70k plus at the dealer on a new LR consider reliability as they will move on to something else inside three years anyways. The second market does (which includes folks here) which is why LRs depreciate so much.
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  #53  
Old June 25th, 2015, 10:10 AM
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The hidden needs of the Defender

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Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
I disagree. If that is the case, then why would anyone buy a Range Rover at all? Why not just get that Jaguar or Bentley? What is unique about Land Rover that differentiates it from all the rest of the SUV's on the market? Why does Kim Kardashian choose a Range Rover when he F'd up possy can afford any Marque they want? And why keep permanent 4wd on Land Rover's then?

I'm not saying they are not capable. It's in the same relm as the guy who daily drives an F250 and occasionally pulls his 3000 pound bass boat with it. Will he ever tow at the truck's limit? Probably not, but he likes the fact that he can.

Same with Range Rover owners. They will probably never see anything more then snow but they like having something that can conquer mountains.

Most of this is marketing. JLR doesn't just sell cars, they sell an escape from reality, or at least the hope of and the possibility of an escape from reality. "Just imagine all the far away and remote places you can visite in this rig? You're just a shmuck who spends too much time in a cubical, but if you buy this car, you will be an adventurer." That's pretty much their marketing strategy.
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  #54  
Old June 25th, 2015, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily View Post
This is silly. JLR is in the business of making stylish cars that sell, not capable ones. The Defender is not the future of JLR, the Evoque, range rover sport, freelander/discovery sport... and then the luxury land yachts like the Range Rover autobiography. The whole off road/exploration thing is just heritage and history. JLR's current upscale client doesn't really care about off pavement performance, and JLR knows this. This client cares about toys and the latest gadgets, like smart phone controlled cars and invisible hoods. If you want to know what you can do better from an off road perspective, just look to Jeep's line of "trail rated" badged rigs, or the $runner Trail / TRD pro, or the ford raptor, aor the dodge power wagon... there's a list of different manufacturers and a whole slew of different vehicles for different needs that or awesome off road. And most of them will best a modern rover.
Actually LR won Four Wheeler of the year: http://www.fourwheeler.com/vehicle-r...4-of-the-year/

They must be doing something correctly.
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  #55  
Old June 25th, 2015, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by don View Post
Actually LR won Four Wheeler of the year: http://www.fourwheeler.com/vehicle-r...4-of-the-year/

They must be doing something correctly.

How did I miss this? Excuse me while I get educated.
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  #56  
Old June 25th, 2015, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily View Post
I'm not saying they are not capable. It's in the same relm as the guy who daily drives an F250 and occasionally pulls his 3000 pound bass boat with it. Will he ever tow at the truck's limit? Probably not, but he likes the fact that he can.

Same with Range Rover owners. They will probably never see anything more then snow but they like having something that can conquer mountains.

Most of this is marketing. JLR doesn't just sell cars, they sell an escape from reality, or at least the hope of and the possibility of an escape from reality. "Just imagine all the far away and remote places you can visite in this rig? You're just a shmuck who spends too much time in a cubical, but if you buy this car, you will be an adventurer." That's pretty much their marketing strategy.
This article supports your restatement. But to have a car that "probably never will, but could", it still must be capable. If Land Rover bleeds the capability out of the brand, they lose their only competitive advantage. Once buyers start hearing critics say that Land Rovers are no longer the off pavement masters like they used to be, they'll lose market share fast.

2013 Range Rover Review: If You Must Buy a Luxury SUV... | Rumble Seat - WSJ
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  #57  
Old June 25th, 2015, 11:50 AM
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What happens to any new Land Rover when an ABS sensor fails or a EAS compressor starts acting up when your deep in the woods?
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  #58  
Old June 25th, 2015, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily View Post
How did I miss this? Excuse me while I get educated.
It was a good read, and I genuinely appreciate the link. It came in 3rd on "4 Wheeling Attributes", where 5% of the score came from. It did win Mechanical (another 5%) and Ride and Drive (50%). It apparently blew the competition away on "Urban/Highway" driving, everyone enjoyed driving it, but they mentioned you could buy 2 Silverados for the same money.

This thread has just reminded me why I feel hung out by the JLR Mothership, and I've taken it way too personal. Maybe that's ok.
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  #59  
Old June 25th, 2015, 01:37 PM
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"I am currently working with the Human Factors Department at JLR in order to answer a question with an elusive answer: What are the unmet requirements (barriers) faced by novice off-road drivers to driving an all-terrain capable vehicle away from a tarmacked road? "

Since I am a novice off-road driver, my 2p.

With regard to the Series 1 barriers, where do I safely stow Mr. S&W? Do I have the tools needed for repair? Can I get out of GPS/cell tower range?

With regard to the LR3 barriers, 'ell no I don't want to take it off road! Still paying car note. don't want it scratched. Not keen on vacuuming the carpet after trip. The pretty diva stays home.
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  #60  
Old June 25th, 2015, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
Not keen on vacuuming the carpet after trip.
How has JLR not figured this out... but a built in vacume is exactly what's needed. anyone remember the conversion vans from the '90s? They had little hand held units in the back... I'm sure it would be a welcome feature in a top spec RR!
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