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  #21  
Old June 24th, 2015, 01:11 PM
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As others have said I'm sick of these pseudo thesis studies which IMHO are nothing more than summer interns given a job to do to make them feel that they can do something to change the world.

If you researched our forum before you put your index finger to keyboard AND had a knowledge of LR you would quickly discover that this forum is all about vehicles that are 18-22 years old. Not only are the vehicles older than the students purportedly on a thesis study but also these vehicles are several generations behind every Defender sold in the Rest of the World.

Basically our knowledge is not relevant to the works outside of North America.
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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  #22  
Old June 24th, 2015, 01:32 PM
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Matt, Technology isn't really the issue. It's not.

1. New body is a unibody and therefore completely sealed. Individual body parts cannot be replaced.

2. New body panels are virtually impossible to find/replace. The originals are sheet aluminum with a few bends here and there. Dirt cheap to replace.

3. New trucks require significant amounts of labor to swap in/out components. Old trucks can be done by a lone owner with spanners.

4. There's no gear-driven locking transfer case with selectable high/low range.

5. No provisions for lockers front and rear with adjustable gear ratios in the differentials.

6. New trucks are much more expensive than the competition (e.g. Jeep Wrangler)

Technology is irrelevant. It's trivial to get rid of all the technology in a modern Land Rover. If cost was not an issue, we could take a 2015 Range Rover, gut it of all electronics, swap in a 200tdi, LT230, and solid axles front and rear. But cost is an issue. Who is going to take a 60,000-100,000 USD vehicle off road? Very few people. So there is no business case for what you're suggesting.
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  #23  
Old June 24th, 2015, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
I would guess that 90%+ of new LR owners never take their vehicles off the pavement. I'm surprised JLR doesn't offer a two wheel drive option. It would save weight, reduce moving parts and increase MPG. I don't want to actually see this happen, I am just thinking out loud.
As far as what draws people to the LR label I would say it's legendary past in the jungle, bush and plains.
I shudder to even think of getting mine soiled...
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  #24  
Old June 24th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Tyler Wirken
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I would say to simply take a page out of the Jeep approach. They are killing it right now in my opinion with how they are catering to the off-road enthusiast. They are producing factory modified trucks with big tires and winches etc... Plus offering warranties on lockers does not hurt. I Was just at an off-road event with some jeeps guys and one was telling me about the diffs and t-cases he broke off-road that were replaced via warranty. Pretty fantastic. They have found a way to keep the Jeep a Jeep all these years. Simple and to the point and like the others have said easy to fix and no frills. I would love nothing more than to see the Defender come back to rival all of the tribute cars like the FJ, Mini, and VW Bug. Same style, same heritage, just updated. A truck that is as close to my Defender as possible that does not leak oil or water when it rains, that I could confidently repair and modify would be the ultimate goal in my opinion.
This Jeep Wrangler brochure should sum up what Land Rover needs to do if they want to get back to their roots and preserve the heritage all of us are so dedicated to. - Jeep Wrangler 2015
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  #25  
Old June 24th, 2015, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post
This comes to mind.
This picture should hang in every hallway at LRHQ next to the 2 millionth Defender produced this year as a reminder of how they gave up on the original dream.
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  #26  
Old June 24th, 2015, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 1of40 View Post

This picture should hang in every hallway at LRHQ next to the 2 millionth Defender produced this year as a reminder of how they gave up on the original dream.
Agree!
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  #27  
Old June 24th, 2015, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 1of40 View Post
This picture should hang in every hallway at LRHQ next to the 2 millionth Defender produced this year as a reminder of how they gave up on the original dream.
Absolutly! They lost the eye!

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  #28  
Old June 24th, 2015, 03:09 PM
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The best thing JLR could do is to keep producing the current Defender platform and keep it simple. Also, if Jeep can produce a Wrangler that complies with NAS safety standards while staying true to its heritage, why is it so impossible for JLR to do the same with the existing Defender platform?

The DC100/2016 Defender is just a Defender in Name Only (DINO). JLR should know there will always be a demand for a simple Jeep-like vehicle as Maurice Wilks did back in the summer of 1947...
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  #29  
Old June 24th, 2015, 03:30 PM
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JLR should keep the Defender. Improve its week points.

Send it from the factory with the frame already galvanized along with other rust area improvements.

No electronic traction control. Maintain manual traction control or at least have them complement each other.

We know with government regulations regarding emissions and improved fuel economy, that electronics are a must in some areas. But keep it minimal and make it reliable with some type of override to prevent being stranded somewhere far away from civilization. A vehicle that can take you anywhere should be able to get you back alive. Too many people found dead in the desert because of a simple breakdown that didn't have to be so complicated.

Why can't airbags and crumple zones be incorporated into the design?

Is it the bonnet not being pedestrian friendly? Damn the pedestrians if they are dumb enough to walk in front of a 5k lb moving vehicle.
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  #30  
Old June 24th, 2015, 04:02 PM
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I think they've already pegged it here....

Reliable, durable. Simple. Less likely to break, and, can be fixed when it does break (without having to take it to the dealer).

Affordable. I don't want to take something off through the brush and get the sides scraped up if I'm paying the equivalent of a house mortgage for it.

Sure, I'd love a Range Rover Sport as a commuter, but it wouldn't make sense to spend that much on something that I'm racking up mileage on to and from work... but even if I had one, I'd not want to risk it offroad.

Old Series Rovers were popular offroad because if you dented and scratched it up, it didn't matter, it looked better even, but if you wanted to fix it, it was easy to do so. Defenders should be filling that niche now, but, their rarity here in the US means they command a price premium, and so even a lot of them here aren't really used hard.

If JLR really wants to see people using their vehicles offroad, give America the Defender, but make them affordable.

My thoughts, for what it's worth....

-L
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  #31  
Old June 24th, 2015, 04:40 PM
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I think the one smart decision JLR is making is to break out the brands between Range Rover and Land Rover. Then you can throw all the wizbang bluetooth, touchscreen, smartphone crap Jerry comes up with at the premium brand products so that Jerry has something novel to talk about at the Beckham lawn party. This will allow Land Rover the freedom to really pursue a "back to roots" strategy and try to come up with a product line that will sell globally in the developing world where the tarmac is lacking.

Please tell Mr. McGovern that his measure of success for the Land Rover brand is when I see a machine gun bolted to the back of one driven by ISIS or the Taliban.
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  #32  
Old June 24th, 2015, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
Please tell Mr. McGovern that his measure of success for the Land Rover brand is when I see a machine gun bolted to the back of one driven by ISIS or the Taliban.
Quote of the day!!!!!!
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  #33  
Old June 24th, 2015, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
As others have said I'm sick of these pseudo thesis studies which IMHO are nothing more than summer interns given a job to do to make them feel that they can do something to change the world.

If you researched our forum before you put your index finger to keyboard AND had a knowledge of LR you would quickly discover that this forum is all about vehicles that are 18-22 years old. Not only are the vehicles older than the students purportedly on a thesis study but also these vehicles are several generations behind every Defender sold in the Rest of the World.

Basically our knowledge is not relevant to the works outside of North America.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can assure you this is not the case. I feel in Europe we do things a little differently than in the States, I am not an Intern, this is a Masters level project done in collaboration with JLR and has professors over seeing it. Loughborough University, much like many JLR manufacturing plants are based in the Midlands of the UK and has an excellent reputation for this type of study. I have been tasked with evaluating the UK and NA markets where as other researchers have been delegated China and India.
__

The reason I value your opinions and insights is that in order to successfully move forward, it is important to have learnt the lessons of the past.. what made a Land Rover accessible to consumers. It is becoming clearer that along the way JLR has adopted another business plan and lost what made them successful in the first place.

Regardless if you believe this discussion is poorly founded, at least it has opened up a debate that is interesting on an intellectual level.
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  #34  
Old June 24th, 2015, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Larson View Post
I shudder to even think of getting mine soiled...
Bill, that ship has sailed!
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  #35  
Old June 24th, 2015, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSnow View Post
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can assure you this is not the case. I feel in Europe we do things a little differently than in the States, I am not an Intern, this is a Masters level project done in collaboration with JLR and has professors over seeing it. Loughborough University, much like many JLR manufacturing plants are based in the Midlands of the UK and has an excellent reputation for this type of study. I have been tasked with evaluating the UK and NA markets where as other researchers have been delegated China and India. __ The reason I value your opinions and insights is that in order to successfully move forward, it is important to have learnt the lessons of the past.. what made a Land Rover accessible to consumers. It is becoming clearer that along the way JLR has adopted another business plan and lost what made them successful in the first place. Regardless if you believe this discussion is poorly founded, at least it has opened up a debate that is interesting on an intellectual level.
Then, bring us back our 'Glorified Tractors".
Manual transmission, rubber floor mats. Easy to hose out. You catch my drift?

------ Follow up post added June 24th, 2015 05:34 PM ------

Buy a Jeep and dissect it. See what sells in America.
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  #36  
Old June 24th, 2015, 07:00 PM
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Listen to some NYHC:
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  #37  
Old June 24th, 2015, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSnow View Post
...
What are the unmet requirements (barriers) faced by novice off-road drivers to driving an all-terrain capable vehicle away from a tarmacked road?

I would like to know any particular challenges faced by Land Rover Defender owners when they take their vehicle off-road (examples: Human machine interface, ergonomic, psychological issues) and how would they like to see it improved.
I think it's basically been said, but the biggest barrier on this side of the pond for novice off-roading defender owners taking them off-road is that they are 20+ years old and have no option of buying a shiny new one. So you either have to be mechanically inclined and willing to maintain your own vehicle or have deep pockets.
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  #38  
Old June 24th, 2015, 07:23 PM
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The problem that I see with ALL car ads these days is the promotion of what kind of bluetooth tech and how fast you can download a movie while sitting in the car. They used to talk about performance, engines etc. Now it is almost like they are advertising a computer or smartphone instead of a car.
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  #39  
Old June 24th, 2015, 07:37 PM
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This clip is a good representation why new owners are resistant to take late model Rovers off road.

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350">
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  #40  
Old June 24th, 2015, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
I think it's basically been said, but the biggest barrier on this side of the pond for novice off-roading defender owners taking them off-road is that they are 20+ years old and have no option of buying a shiny new one. So you either have to be mechanically inclined and willing to maintain your own vehicle or have deep pockets.
Electronics can make a vehicle incredibly capable, don't get me wrong. I love the traction control on my RR.

But a vehicle that, through computers, can make even a novice drive like a pro can result in someone becoming overconfident and finding himself in over his head especially when the computer has a fault.

I think back to basics is best.
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