The 2013 Boxster is comming, going to check it out tomorrow, should anyone care? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old June 26th, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Question The 2013 Boxster is comming, going to check it out tomorrow, should anyone care?

I got invited to a dealer event tomorrow where they are unveiling the new 2013 Boxster, they say they will have free alcohol, all you can eat sushi and test drives. Do you guys think it'll be worth going for to check out? My sales guys claims the new boxster handles better than a 911 because its a mid-engine design. Does this sounds about right? Always felt like boxster was a girls car.
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  #2  
Old June 26th, 2012, 01:51 PM
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The Boxter has always outhandled a 911 ever since it came out which is why Porsche has always put a less potent engine in it to make sure it did not cannibalize 911 sales. As far as the Boxster being a girls car, it's not - it's not marketed exclusively to men, that's all.

I don't drink and am picky about my sushi, but free test drives are always a great deal in my book.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
My sales guys claims the new boxster handles better than a 911 because its a mid-engine design. Does this sounds about right?
I believe this was a myth perpetuated by people who weren't well off enough to afford a 911. In reality, the placement of the engine is irrelevant. The dynamic weight distribution of the vehicle while cornering, accelerating, and braking matter much more.

Given the 911's enormous advantage under hard braking, as well as it's ridiculous rear weight bias under acceleration, I would choose it over a mid-engined Porsche any day.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I believe this was a myth perpetuated by people who weren't well off enough to afford a 911. In reality, the placement of the engine is irrelevant. The dynamic weight distribution of the vehicle while cornering, accelerating, and braking matter much more.

Given the 911's enormous advantage under hard braking, as well as it's ridiculous rear weight bias under acceleration, I would choose it over a mid-engined Porsche any day.
Ed, I had to read your post a couple of times and still don't get it. 911s are at a strict DISADVANTAGE when it comes to braking. Watch any ALMS/IMSA/Endurance race and you'll see them getting murdered in the braking zones. It's in the corner exit that they excel because they can get the power down better than anything else.

Engine placement makes all the difference when it comes to sports cars which is why the best ones are always mid-engined for perfect weight balance. Porsche made a strategic mistake making the 911 rear engined and have spent the past 50 years trying their best to overcome physics (very successfully in their RS/GT2/GT3 models I might add).

Truth of the matter is that mid-engine cars own rear engine cars when it comes to performance. And that's a fact that even Porsche admiit when it comes to building their supercars - the 917 road car, the GT1, the Carrera GT, and the 918 are all mid-engined.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
Ed, I had to read your post a couple of times and still don't get it. 911s are at a strict DISADVANTAGE when it comes to braking. Watch any ALMS/IMSA/Endurance race and you'll see them getting murdered in the braking zones. It's in the corner exit that they excel because they can get the power down better than anything else.

Engine placement makes all the difference when it comes to sports cars which is why the best ones are always mid-engined for perfect weight balance. Porsche made a strategic mistake making the 911 rear engined and have spent the past 50 years trying their best to overcome physics (very successfully in their RS/GT2/GT3 models I might add).

Truth of the matter is that mid-engine cars own rear engine cars when it comes to performance. And that's a fact that even Porsche admiit when it comes to building their supercars - the 917 road car, the GT1, the Carrera GT, and the 918 are all mid-engined.

Very good reading, thanks for that post. Makes a lot of sense what you posted because I was told that the 991 now is now considered more of a mid-engine thanks to the body getting bigger and them moving the engine more forward as opposed to the last model. So looks like they are now slowly improving the weight distribution starting with the 991. Can't wait til the 991 Turbo S comes out. It's going to be crazy with its tri-turbo system.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I believe this was a myth perpetuated by people who weren't well off enough to afford a 911. In reality, the placement of the engine is irrelevant. The dynamic weight distribution of the vehicle while cornering, accelerating, and braking matter much more.

Given the 911's enormous advantage under hard braking, as well as it's ridiculous rear weight bias under acceleration, I would choose it over a mid-engined Porsche any day.
You need to beef up on the moment of inertia....
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Old June 26th, 2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
Ed, I had to read your post a couple of times and still don't get it. 911s are at a strict DISADVANTAGE when it comes to braking. Watch any ALMS/IMSA/Endurance race and you'll see them getting murdered in the braking zones. It's in the corner exit that they excel because they can get the power down better than anything else.
I was under the impression that Porsche won 9/13 manufacturers championships in the GT/GT2 class. 7/9 in IMSA cup GT/GT2 class.

Getting murdered in the braking zones is a very strong statement!
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Old June 26th, 2012, 05:32 PM
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what........"the 917 road car"
Never existed -
The GT-1 was a FIA homigation special
Carrera GT - built to no rules, just a road car.

the 911 has been the main race platform for 30+ years in GT, and the last 10+ since there have been no real prototypes that compete in the Top levels of racing anywhere.

i like boxters and new one looks better than the last one - lets hope it has a soul, the last 2 i've had did not. So i've always bought 911's

i think the 911 Win record speaks for its self, not sure what you mean getting murdered in the breaking zones is all about, each design is a comprimise. In 911's you break earlier than say in a mid engine ferrari, but you are the power earlier as well as the weight transfers to the rear you exploit the advantage of of the rear engine.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 05:48 PM
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The interior uses many of the same parts from the 991. Which of course was taken from the Panamera. Even the steering wheel, chronograph, shifter and shifter console is from the 911. So you get a little bit of 911 for only $50k (265hp). 315 hp if you get the Boxster S. 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. ($61k) More than likely a little faster since Porsche is conservative with their 0-60 numbers. The new Scion FRS and Subaru BRZ is only 200 hp. Seems kinda weak to me.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I was under the impression that Porsche won 9/13 manufacturers championships in the GT/GT2 class. 7/9 in IMSA cup GT/GT2 class.

Getting murdered in the braking zones is a very strong statement!
Ed, I'm well versed in Porsche racing history. You forget to mention that Porsche was racing mid-engined cars (908/917/962 etc.) before switching to to the 911 platform in the mid-70s. Don't get me wrong, I have the highest respect for Porsche's racing pedigree, but there's a reason why they used to compete in GT2 not GT1 class - Corvettes murder them in the braking zones, and there were till 2010 no other factory supported GT2 teams apart from Porsche. And if you go back to the glory days of IMSA, it was the 935 power advantage that won races - they were famous for being absolute pigs to drive.

Full disclosure: I'm a huge 911 fan and think the GT3 RS4.0 is probably the best road car made in recent memory, but am honest about the short comings of the platform. I've seen lightly prepped Z06s murder Cup cars on many a braking zone.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rlynch356 View Post
what........"the 917 road car"
Never existed -
This 917 road car:
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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rlynch356 View Post
the 911 has been the main race platform for 30+ years in GT, and the last 10+ since there have been no real prototypes that compete in the Top levels of racing anywhere.
Interesting that you think Porsche doesn't do prototypes. I wonder what the LMP2 RS Spyder is:
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  #13  
Old June 26th, 2012, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
This 917 road car:

Is that Steve McQueen? How many "road" legal ones were made? Is this the same car in the Kuberick movie "THX"?
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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:40 PM
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I'm probably being a bit of a dick in my posts - so apologies to Ed and Robert in advance.

Like I said before, I love 911s I just enjoy taking the piss out of people who valiantly defend the platform against the laws of physics.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 02:07 AM
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No no, you are passionate about the subject, I know. I did offer a strong opinion, for which I apologize.

Although russell makes a good point about moment of inertia. It was wrong for me to say "irrelevant". It may be more accurate to say that engine placement is one tool of many for the chassis designer, and that placing the engine in one position or another is not inherently superior on its own.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos
No no, you are passionate about the subject, I know. I did offer a strong opinion, for which I apologize.

Although russell makes a good point about moment of inertia. It was wrong for me to say "irrelevant". It may be more accurate to say that engine placement is one tool of many for the chassis designer, and that placing the engine in one position or another is not inherently superior on its own.
Many will say that the mid engine design is more nimble, agile, tossable and arguably a better handler. However the same reasons it is more agile also make it much easier to lose at it's limits in the hands of an inexperienced driver (the throttle off oversteer of the tail happy 911 - pre electronic gizmo days - is a different story). Once the rear is gone in mid you very likely are not going to get it back. Inertia is a funny thing. There are trade offs on both sides. This is why very experienced race drivers like mid engined cars. Their skills allow them to tap the cars potential.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 08:24 AM
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Why not the cayman? Either the s or isn't there an r or rs model now? Regardless the cayman in my opinion is the best platform porsche has

The 911, as with any rear engine car is a whacky feeling to drive. If you know how to drive them. They are fast. Very friggin fast. Problem is 99% of the people who drive them have no idea how. Thing with a rear engine car is you need to be under power for it to respond. Correct on the braking, you want weight transfer when braking. Just like you want weight transfer in the opposite direction when accelerating. You don't want weight transfer (at least front to back) while cornering as that will give your front and rear tires difference amount of lateral grip and thus cause either under or oversteer


So the 911 rocks. I think the cayman rocks, persoanly I'm not a fan of the boxster. Don't care what they do to it. It's history of being a chicks car has ruined it for me, and if you want their mid engine car get a cayman

If your looking for performance and value, then you should be looking at corvettes not porsches.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 11:48 AM
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I'm a fan and have owned both. The prototypes i excluded because of the non-road nature of them after the 906 (the last dual purpose race car porsche made)
the 917 with plates. looks remarkably similiar to these copies (well done copies) http://www.carguychronicles.com/2011...-for-road.html

i like to have one, personally.

porsche never made the 917 for the road. nor was the 962 produced by porsche for use on the road, Daur did that however. either way not a porsche product.

the new boxster looks nice and a lot better than the old one. and for a porsche its pretty cheap.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 11:58 AM
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This 917 road car:
There was a count in Europe (Austrian or German - don't remember which) who licensed a 917 for the street. Road & Track did an article on it.

Look closely at the second photo and you'll see the Alabama plates he put on it (at the time you could register almost anything for the road in Alabama). Road & Track commented on how it got a lot of attention running the Autobahn in a 917 with Alabama plates.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 12:28 PM
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i get it... but still registering a race car for the road is not the same as being built as a road car. which was my point.

Its been done with many things (956, and 962's as well)
http://www.autozine.org/Archive/Daue...sic/962LM.html

but the important part is "not made by porsche."
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