So if Engine swapping isn't legal, why are 'gliders" legal? - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old June 11th, 2015, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
to Bills point an 07+ LS motor is going to run a hell of a lot cleaner than an early 80s carbed 3.5L.
Fo shizzle. That would be a beast.
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  #22  
Old June 11th, 2015, 08:53 PM
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I think you could put a nuclear reactor in your Defender and nobody would say boo.
If there were EPA enforcers running around fining people for putting non-compliant engines you'd hear about it.
The entire aftermarket and performance industry would be all over it. As you see in the fine print the most they do is put in boilerplate that some part or other is not legal to use on vehicles in California that are used on the road. Yeh right.
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  #23  
Old June 11th, 2015, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
I think you could put a nuclear reactor in your Defender and nobody would say boo.
If there were EPA enforcers running around fining people for putting non-compliant engines you'd hear about it.
The entire aftermarket and performance industry would be all over it. As you see in the fine print the most they do is put in boilerplate that some part or other is not legal to use on vehicles in California that are used on the road. Yeh right.
That might not be so far fetched as it seems. Lockheed Martin's compact fusion reactor... "we can replace a device that must be housed in a large building with one that can fit on the back of a truck."

Compact Fusion · Lockheed Martin
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  #24  
Old June 12th, 2015, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post

I had an overseas defender exporter tell me last week he couldn't be involved with exporting a truck to the states knowing the engine would be swapped because its illegal. Where are people getting this from? And once i get the truck stateside why do they care what i do to it?
The possible reason for this importer saying such to you is because here in the states we mainly deal with a single Id for a vehicle, but many other countries list trans, engine and diff serials on their registration documents, including paint colors, schemes such as pinstripes etc...very detailed.
Thus his possible reasoning and maybe concern of engine replacement..... He may think it's illegal to swap engines in the states.
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  #25  
Old June 12th, 2015, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post

That might not be so far fetched as it seems. Lockheed Martin's compact fusion reactor... "we can replace a device that must be housed in a large building with one that can fit on the back of a truck."

Compact Fusion · Lockheed Martin
oh man...i have such opinions about that project...#rolleyes

if you want another LM claim to take with skepticism, look up OTEC.
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  #26  
Old June 12th, 2015, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
I think you could put a nuclear reactor in your Defender and nobody would say boo.
If there were EPA enforcers running around fining people for putting non-compliant engines you'd hear about it.
The entire aftermarket and performance industry would be all over it. As you see in the fine print the most they do is put in boilerplate that some part or other is not legal to use on vehicles in California that are used on the road. Yeh right.
The problem would be if your state has a "fuel type" on their titles/registration for use during inspection. They usually don't have a box for U-235. haha
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  #27  
Old June 12th, 2015, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlosz View Post
The possible reason for this importer saying such to you is because here in the states we mainly deal with a single Id for a vehicle, but many other countries list trans, engine and diff serials on their registration documents, including paint colors, schemes such as pinstripes etc...very detailed.
Thus his possible reasoning and maybe concern of engine replacement..... He may think it's illegal to swap engines in the states.
He absolutely does think its illegal and does not want to be party to any illegal activity
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  #28  
Old June 12th, 2015, 10:28 AM
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Well it is, by the letter of the law...

He probably just doesnt understand that the USA has literally millions of unenforceable regulations that are largely ingnored.

However, not to play devils advocate but following Will H's fight with the CBP and the subsequent egg on their face, it wouldnt be a stretch to imagine CBP calling their friends at the EPA and nudging them about this regulation......
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  #29  
Old June 12th, 2015, 10:29 AM
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Legal as long as the MY of the chassis is the same or older MY as the engine.

Also rebuilt/reman engines are legit. However "new" engines of the same type are not legit. A factory reman engine will be just as good as a brand new one so that works.

This is basically a rebuild kit. We do it all the time here. Take a 1983 110. Slap a Galy chassis, 300 TDI, new doors, newer interior, new transmission, etc in it.
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  #30  
Old June 12th, 2015, 10:41 AM
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Thousand of LS swaps are being undertaken in old formerly carbureted vehicles everyday.. Those are all illegal even if the result is a more EPA friendly car/truck?
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  #31  
Old June 12th, 2015, 10:45 AM
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The law is pretty clear:

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production...ngswitch_0.pdf
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  #32  
Old June 12th, 2015, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
As written maybe, but enforcement no way. Also, there are a lot of discrepencies as listed above between both state regulations, federal ones, what the state thinks the federal ones are and how much the federal ones care about what the states say.
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  #33  
Old June 12th, 2015, 11:45 AM
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Practically every hot rod, and most modern engine creativity in cars is illegal somehow, but there is not a mechanism for enforcement, and that's not what the EPA cares about anyway. Rule making and enforcement on the part of federal agencies is a constant push-pull between the federal government and the states. If the EPA tried to force every state to adopt California Air Resource Board standards there would be a hell of a fight (some states like NY have done it voluntarily but still don't end up being as restrictive as CA). Our system favors local jurisdictions for enforcement of all kinds of stuff where there is not a specified federal role (e.g. Customs and border control) or a legal interpretation of jurisdiction (such as the interstate commerce clause and the flow of trade). EPA can tell Rovers North or another business to stop selling diesel conversion kits, EPA cannot keep you from putting whatever kind of motor you like in your personal vehicle. The enforcement mechanism is state registration regs, end of story. If someone with actual legal cred would like to add more nuance then I'd love to hear it.
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  #34  
Old June 12th, 2015, 11:47 AM
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Yes, it is pretty clear that if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions will not be adversely affected, it is ok.

Is that your interpretation as well?

I would like to see Memo 1A (Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA
(Attachment 1).)

Can someone google that for me?



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Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
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1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
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  #35  
Old June 12th, 2015, 11:54 AM
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Is your Google broken? Did you google yourself too much?

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/2753.pdf

------ Follow up post added June 12th, 2015 11:55 AM ------

Revised editions…
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/rev1a.pdf
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  #36  
Old June 12th, 2015, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
oh man...i have such opinions about that project...#rolleyes

if you want another LM claim to take with skepticism, look up OTEC.
"Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion technology, known as OTEC, uses the oceanís natural thermal gradient to generate power." That's very interesting...

------ Follow up post added June 12th, 2015 10:46 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
Thousand of LS swaps are being undertaken in old formerly carbureted vehicles everyday.. Those are all illegal even if the result is a more EPA friendly car/truck?
No, that's perfectly legal because the LS engine is newer than the vehicle it's going into, assuming they include the LS engine's emissions controls so that "emissions are not adversely affected."
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  #37  
Old June 12th, 2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC View Post
Practically every hot rod, and most modern engine creativity in cars is illegal somehow, but there is not a mechanism for enforcement, and that's not what the EPA cares about anyway. Rule making and enforcement on the part of federal agencies is a constant push-pull between the federal government and the states. If the EPA tried to force every state to adopt California Air Resource Board standards there would be a hell of a fight (some states like NY have done it voluntarily but still don't end up being as restrictive as CA). Our system favors local jurisdictions for enforcement of all kinds of stuff where there is not a specified federal role (e.g. Customs and border control) or a legal interpretation of jurisdiction (such as the interstate commerce clause and the flow of trade). EPA can tell Rovers North or another business to stop selling diesel conversion kits, EPA cannot keep you from putting whatever kind of motor you like in your personal vehicle. The enforcement mechanism is state registration regs, end of story. If someone with actual legal cred would like to add more nuance then I'd love to hear it.
I agree. We can all see what the EPA law is and decide whether to follow it or not, but it does come down to a state issue. Just look at marijuana. The states (& DC) are legalizing it but it's still federally illegal. The federal government has simply decided they aren't going to enforce that. It's probably the same with engine conversions.
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  #38  
Old June 12th, 2015, 02:34 PM
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That memo that everyone keeps pointing to is not us code. The actual stuff is here: Title II | Clean Air Act | US EPA
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  #39  
Old June 12th, 2015, 02:46 PM
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Federal law has proven to been a daunting task to enforce as long as sovereign states elect not to enforce it for whatever the reason may be; cost, manpower, etc.

Federal government has been successful at coercing states into enforcing some laws by threatening to withhold federal highway funding. Case in point, the seatbelt law.
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  #40  
Old June 12th, 2015, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
That memo that everyone keeps pointing to is not us code. The actual stuff is here: Title II | Clean Air Act | US EPA
Code provides a framework for various agencies to use and interpret when it comes to dealing with situations that arise. The engine switching info sheet and the memo 1a provide some clarity on how epa (an agency) has determined that it will seek to enforce the code with reference to the act of swapping various engines into various vehicles. No they aren't code but they are informative in the sense that they tell you how EPA interprets the code, and since they are the one tasked with enforcing the code (well, with some help from DHS and other LE branches) it is a useful document.

You got all that?

------ Follow up post added June 12th, 2015 02:55 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
Just look at marijuana.
Why just look at it? Shit man, light it up!

Bob Marley drove a 109, mon.
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Present:
1960 SII 109"- "Red Square"
1984 90 Tdi- "Yamelo"
1988 RRC- "Chewbacca"
1987 RRC- "Chewy 2"
2008 RRS SC- "The Supersofa"

Past:
1959 SII 88"- "The Little Green Beastie" last seen in NY
1972 SIII 88"- "GreenHELL" now in NC
1988 90 "Eric the Half a Bee" half a truck, sold for parts
1991 RRC- never got a name- long since recycled
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