So how effective is the SD Roll Cage? - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:08 PM
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So how effective is the SD Roll Cage?

As more and more ROW Defenders make it here to find new homes, it seems like very few get fitted with true rollover protection. I've never been much on government mandated anything, but looking at some of the photos in this link makes me glad to have the NAS SD Cage.

But I'm wondering just how stout it is under all that thick padding. At least it is tied into the frame, but images of ROW rollovers without any type of cage are really scary (strange what happens to your views after you settle down, get married, and most importantly have kids.. LOL!)

Some Examples from the link:





This one appears to have had a SD cage on it..

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  #2  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:12 PM
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The last one could have lacked supports to the frame, at least that's what it looks like.

Or even more importantly, someone could have used stainless mounting bolts for the cage. People like the look of stainless(and the corrosion resistance) but when it comes down to it, stainless will probably shear in a roll over, and you'll lose the protection
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  #3  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:13 PM
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Good testament for a NAS type cage right here:

Vs. without when rolling (even in sand).


------ Follow up post added July 28th, 2015 03:17 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.G View Post
The last one could have lacked supports to the frame, at least that's what it looks like.

Or even more importantly, someone could have used stainless mounting bolts for the cage. People like the look of stainless(and the corrosion resistance) but when it comes down to it, stainless will probably shear in a roll over, and you'll lose the protection
Well said.
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  #4  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:26 PM
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I just want to make a note that stainless is an engineering material. Using stainless steel fasteners is perfectly fine as the single shear strength of 70ksi stainless fasteners exceed the strength of the weakest parts of the cage. Each point on my p&p cage has four bolts, meaning an equivalent 70ksi stainless fastener strength of 280ksi. the tubing and flat plates would bend before the bolts would break.

In the aerospace industry, we use stainless all the time in applications that exceed the parameters that the stone-age cages surrounding Defenders will never have to see. There are precipitation hardened austenitic grades that have greater strength than Grade 10 fasteners.

Whatever cage was on that truck failed because the cage's weakest point failed due to the collision. It would be premature to blame it on stainless fasteners!

inadequate triangulation, excessive speed, and about a hundred other variables could have caused that to happen. Look at all cage failures. They are classic a-pillar failures associated with lack of triangulation. Gussets are obviously necessary at the windshield bend, as well as both the windshield crossbars. However, these were not added as a compromise due to the obtrusiveness of triangular gussets.

The bolts on the cages have nothing to do with the failures.

If you want a cage that will guarantee your kids will survive any crash, buy a rally spec fia caged coupe and put everyone in five point harnesses. The NAS cages are compromises - they give a known level of protection within the parameters set by their removable design and their aesthetics. Exceeding this level of protection means that they will fail catastrophically. Stainless bolts are not weak points.
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  #5  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
I just want to make a note that stainless is an engineering material. Using stainless steel fasteners is perfectly fine as the single shear strength of 70ksi stainless fasteners exceed the strength of the weakest parts of the cage. Each point on my p&p cage has four bolts, meaning an equivalent 70ksi stainless fastener strength of 280ksi. the tubing and flat plates would bend before the bolts would break.

Whatever cage was on that truck failed because the cage's weakest point failed due to the collision. it would be premature to blame it on stainless fasteners!

inadequate triangulation, excessive speed, and about a hundred other variables could have caused that to happen.

if you want a cage that will guarantee your kids will survive any crash, buy a rally spec fia caged coupe and put everyone in five point harnesses.

Still no guarantee as you can whiplash and snap your neck
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  #6  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRNAD90 View Post

This one appears to have had a SD cage on it..

That looks like some homemade cage that may have been more aesthetic than functional. It looks like the welds broke right off below the windshield.
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  #7  
Old July 28th, 2015, 03:54 PM
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Mounting points to chassis plus correct choice of tubing (metal type diameter wall thickness)
I know one well truck that was built up by a well known shop with their home brewed roll cage that was just mounted to the bodywork.
Total protection provided as a result about zero.
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  #8  
Old July 28th, 2015, 04:13 PM
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I went a p&p external roll cage. I had Mike Sandone at North America Overland install it. Not sure if it's better than a safety devices roll cage, but it I will say I am very pleased with the end result.
Mike said it was relatively easy to install, but then again I knew before I even bought it, I was going to have someone very capable doing the job (Not me - lol!)

It's better than nothing for sure and hopefully I'll never have to test it's strength. I'll attach the pictures that Mike took while he was doing the install for anyone looking into doing this to their ROW truck.
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  #9  
Old July 28th, 2015, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Still no guarantee as you can whiplash and snap your neck
Very true. Google Dale Earnhardt and Scott Kalitta. Basal skull and spine fractures and hematomas due to rapid acceleration of the aorta during crashes will kill you instantly.

Sorry Zack for getting into a nerd-fit over the stainless stuff.
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  #10  
Old July 28th, 2015, 05:18 PM
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Gery: thanks for posting all those mounting bracket set ups. Very useful,
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A friend of mine runs a land rover / range rover specialty repair shop. Based on his experience, they are capable of stopping anywhere, anytime, at any cost.

I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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  #11  
Old July 28th, 2015, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Very true. Google Dale Earnhardt and Scott Kalitta. Basal skull and spine fractures and hematomas due to rapid acceleration of the aorta during crashes will kill you instantly.

Sorry Zack for getting into a nerd-fit over the stainless stuff.
Haha no hard feelings... I've just always been warned not to use stainless fixings in applications where shear strength is ultra important(winch bumpers, cages, etc)

I do not know as much as you
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  #12  
Old July 28th, 2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmityD90 View Post
I went a p&p external roll cage. I had Mike Sandone at North America Overland install it. Not sure if it's better than a safety devices roll cage, but it I will say I am very pleased with the end result.
Mike said it was relatively easy to install, but then again I knew before I even bought it, I was going to have someone very capable doing the job (Not me - lol!)

It's better than nothing for sure and hopefully I'll never have to test it's strength. I'll attach the pictures that Mike took while he was doing the install for anyone looking into doing this to their ROW truck.
Gery,

In my opinion the P&P Cage is far superior to the SD
The bulkhead support on the SD is a flimsy " L " mount as the P&P is same tubular as the rest of the mounts

When I installed it ( with professional help ) on my red 110i was impressed by how sturdy the mounting points were.

If there was one thing I would change, the rear support mounts to the crossmember, and that is not one of the sturdy points , so, I had the guys who help me, reinforce the crossmember as well as use 2 dixon bates support brackets ( found on row hitches ) , welded to the crossmember reinforcement plate, and mounted to the frame , you might want to look into that
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  #13  
Old July 28th, 2015, 07:15 PM
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Brian (brewie) did mine - fully welded front to rear...
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  #14  
Old July 28th, 2015, 07:42 PM
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Thanks Gustavo for the advice. I'll look into beefing it up.

For someone who has owned both a NAS 90 and a ROW 90, my biggest observation is I've felt safer in the NAS truck. I still object to taking my kids in it. Probably will be down the road before that happens (other than around the town sort of ventures). I really should of upgraded the rear brakes. I actually had Rovertek replace all my brakes and lines thinking the "original" ones that were on my truck were bad. In fact, there was only marginal improvement. When I have the money, I'm going to do disks in the back. That may change my opinion of safety of a ROW truck.

On the other side of the coin, the one time I did get to take it for real off-roading, what an amazing difference the diesel is on he trail. Just an observation.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 07:43 PM
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Since I'm a new ROW 110 owner , I've actually been asking myself this very question over the last day or so. I've got 3 young children and so my thoughts on this topic immediately go to them. JimC commented in a thread some time ago that struck a chord with me. The cage is a one time use investment. If it serves it purpose just one time, then it was worth the investment.

Installation of the SD cage will require me to install a smooth roof, where the P&P cage does not. I haven't done enough research on the subject to make a decision yet. Count me subscribed though, because I'd like to hear some feedback!
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  #16  
Old July 28th, 2015, 07:49 PM
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I have seen an SD cage do a slow roll from a hill climb. I think it only did one 360. It had four people in it with two of those in the back seat. The truck cage was bent pretty bad but nobody was hurt. So I would say the SD cage is pretty good.
Will, Please do a cage ASAP. We cant loose you!
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  #17  
Old July 28th, 2015, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willh View Post
Since I'm a new ROW 110 owner , I've actually been asking myself this very question over the last day or so. I've got 3 young children and so my thoughts on this topic immediately go to them. JimC commented in a thread some time ago that struck a chord with me. The cage is a one time use investment. If it serves it purpose just one time, then it was worth the investment.

Installation of the SD cage will require me to install a smooth roof, where the P&P cage does not. I haven't done enough research on the subject to make a decision yet. Count me subscribed though, because I'd like to hear some feedback!
Internal cage and keep your ribbed roof:

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  #18  
Old July 28th, 2015, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ontheway View Post
Brian (brewie) did mine - fully welded front to rear...
Any detailed pics?
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  #19  
Old July 28th, 2015, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
Any detailed pics?
that's my cue I did not make an internal hoop because I used .25" side wall from the A hoop to C hoop. All fully welded... Anyone that wants to know I'll see if I can post a pic tomorrow of the wall thickness. SD uses .095 which is just over a 16th of inch. So do the math on the the difference between a quarter inch.
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  #20  
Old July 28th, 2015, 11:14 PM
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Here are some pictures from a thread I posted back in Feb.
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