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  #1  
Old December 8th, 2014, 09:29 PM
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Small radiator suggestions

I'm looking for ideas/suggestions for small radiators for my EV project. My motor and inverter are both water cooled and initially I planned to use one circuit to cool both. I have since learned that the inverter likes to run cooler than the motor and will need two circuits. That and a redesign of my front battery box leaves me looking for two small radiators to fit in the series engine bay (say 24" wide with room for the ports), but leave room for the battery box (about 7" below the slam panel - I can extend about 2" above it like a stock radiator, leaving about 9" tall radiators). So ideally a 12"x9" radiator.

These would be ideal if they were less tall since they have integrated tanks and filling points.

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http://www.frozenboost.com/water-to-...or-p-1062.html

I could put them side to side and route the lines to each side. But they are too tall by about 5"

The other way would be to put one in front of the other. I already have one of these

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http://www.brightonracingproducts.co...ass-10-004.htm

and two of them would work except they would need to be staggered to allow access to the ports, which I don't really want to do.

I could also get one of these

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAR-PLATE-FU...-/400386557228

Which would allow me to have those ports go to the side, but it's pushing the width wider than I'd be comfortable with.

These are probably a better fit although I'm not keen on the push on connectors (can't really explain why)

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Air-to-Water...-/140584269021

And this setup require reservoirs which are more things to find room for, so I'd prefer integrated tanks.

Do you have any better ideas? Know of a source for 12x9 radiators or something close?

tia
charles
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  #2  
Old December 9th, 2014, 01:32 AM
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How about motorcycle radiators
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  #3  
Old December 9th, 2014, 07:42 AM
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Or heater matrixes? Lots of those out there in the size you need
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I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
How about motorcycle radiators
I was thinking the same thing.
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  #5  
Old December 9th, 2014, 08:21 AM
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Yeah motorcycle and Atv radiators were one of the first things I looked for. They all seem to be every specific shapes and not nice little rectangles. I will try them again before giving up.

I will search for heater cores. With a custom frame they might be the ticket.

Sadly large computer coolers are use in size - I'm a bit wary of them being able to handle the automotive environment though.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 09:33 AM
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I love your thinking out of the box. Spectra premium has an entire on line catalog of heater cores. Most car and truck heater cores are smaller than you are looking for. There must be more companies out there with similar sites.

Try these: http://ecat.spectrapremium.com/prod/heaters/99425

You also want to keep the inlet/outlets pretty generic unless you are willing to modify to your needs.
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  #7  
Old December 9th, 2014, 10:12 AM
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Suzuki DRZ400 radiators
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  #8  
Old December 9th, 2014, 10:15 AM
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what is the max thermal output due to loss?
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  #9  
Old December 9th, 2014, 10:16 AM
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Look for an early GoldWing radiator. They are made to fit between the two front frame members so they are tabbed and rubber mounted. The fan assembly mounts to the back. Used to ride one so i think it's a good fit.
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  #10  
Old December 9th, 2014, 10:59 AM
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Remember I am height constrained. Without even trying to lookup the dimensions (the other problem with bike radiators) I can tell those gold wing ones are too tall.

Ed, don't get all technical on me. I need the best cooling capacity I can fit in the space
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Old December 9th, 2014, 11:07 AM
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I kept within the dimensions you mentioned. But my concern about heater cores v Radiators is that the latter is probably built a little tougher and better able to handle road debris that gets kicked up into the air stream.
Custom aluminum might be the best way forward. Especially if you need to add a fan and shroud.
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I don't know about the brakes, only their unreliability.
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  #12  
Old December 9th, 2014, 11:38 AM
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All you need to do is have a radiator shop either rotate or relocate the filler neck. I think you should stick with looking at brass motorcycle ones.
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  #13  
Old December 9th, 2014, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
Ed, don't get all technical on me. I need the best cooling capacity I can fit in the space
Hahah. Well, the thing is that your thermal needs may be much smaller than you think.

Assuming a 30% efficiency for a gas engine and 90% efficiency for a 3 phase AC motor @ 60hp, the equivalent gas engine radiator would be one appropriate for a vehicle making 20hp.

Also doesn't the electric motor only dissipate this heat under full throttle? I'm assuming at idle it makes 0 heat.

To me this means you could get away with using a single radiator from a liter motorcycle and still have enormous amounts of leftover cooling capacity. Also you could probably drastically improve the cooling efficiency of a smaller radiator with an electric fan and a dedicated coolant pump.

Also I disagree that copper/brass is always better than aluminum. The core design of the radiator is much more important than the material that the radiator is made of. I've never seen a high performance race/drag car use a copper/brass radiator, except maybe in the 70's?
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  #14  
Old December 9th, 2014, 01:41 PM
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Brass cz it's easier to find a shop that can rework it, not due to thermo qualities.
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  #15  
Old December 9th, 2014, 01:55 PM
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Get a custom one built - someplace like Ron Davis can probably build two cooling circuits into one assembly for you to make packaging easier. It won't be cheap, but custom conversions never are.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Also doesn't the electric motor only dissipate this heat under full throttle? I'm assuming at idle it makes 0 heat.
An electric motor does not idle..... Heat production will be based on current draw, which is proportional torque output.
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  #17  
Old December 9th, 2014, 04:25 PM
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08+ klr might be a good size I can check my bike when I get home if you would like.
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  #18  
Old December 9th, 2014, 05:48 PM
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Dave, that would be great. no bigger than 12" wide, 9" tall for the tank size, (cap can extend).

On the material, I am actually partial to aluminum, simply because the devices being cooled are aluminum and I think it makes sense to keep it one material. But I'm not ruling out copper or brass.

Ed is right that I should be able to calculate the cooling required. The problem is there are too many unknowns. Let me list at least what I do know, and what I think needs to be taken into consideration.

1. Total volume of coolant. Unknown until I can make decisions about the radiators and or tanks. The connections are all pretty small (3/4") so the tubing will be small so not a whole lot of volume in the tubes. More is better obviously.

2. Pumps. Yes I'll be pumping the fluid. The motor calls for 8 liters per minute flow, and a max of 130F inlet temps (windings need to keep below 347F). The inverter calls for 13-16 liters per minute and the same max 130F inlet temps.

3. Fans. Yes, the idea is to have fans (or the option of adding them) and run them when the temps demand it.

4. Thermal cooling needed. Well, this is where it gets sticky. I don't know how many amps my motor will pull under load since I don't know the efficiency of the truck until I get it running. What little I know so far is that a VW thing has this motor in it (with a gearbox) and when they had a single circuit, it stayed cool enough until they came off the highway after a while. It seemed like the system couldn't pull residual heat out of the motor even though it wasn't really generating any heat, now lacking air flow perhaps, or not enough coolant volume or ??. The main issue was the inverter temps got too high and it went into limp home mode which is interesting since the ratings imply it can live at the motor temps - so he must have been pushing it on the motor too.

As I was writing this and looking up info, I saw something I hadn't seen before, which is a "kit" sold but the folks I got the motor from who have the only working systems using this motor that I know of (described above), so I assume this would meet the need (but it's a bit tall for my application). But it puts me in the ballpark for size.

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?...CIRCUIT&cat=11

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Derale...ler,53659.html

It did occur to me that I could mount it at an angle, but would prefer not to for various reasons. But this gives me more ideas to look at - existing dual circuit offerings.

Anyhow, I make some time a little later to check out the links and do some more searching, thanks!
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Old December 9th, 2014, 07:50 PM
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Measured best I could and it looks just a little off what you are looking for

13" or 13 1/2 tall at the high point (rad has a slope of an inch or more from one side to the other on the top so one side is around ~12 tall)

7" wide

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  #20  
Old December 9th, 2014, 07:52 PM
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