Rollcage (roof rack continued) - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 18th, 2004, 12:30 PM
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Rollcage (roof rack continued)

I didn't want to tread jack the roof rack tread in help so I was gunna let it go but then I just couldn't in good faith when I heard this:

Quote:
There is no way they will move with a side impact
I'm sure that the cage provides a lot of help with a roll for sure. I was wronge in my first assesment. But if you believe it will not move, you are way mistaken.

Here is exibit A, Safety Devises
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  #2  
Old March 18th, 2004, 12:31 PM
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Exibit B:

A cage about as strong as the one you say will never move:
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  #3  
Old March 18th, 2004, 12:36 PM
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Exhibit C:

A cage way stronger than what you have.



I'm sure you are fine with your cage. But don't post that it will never move, it will give a lot of the people here a very false sense of security. The cages that Safety Devises sell just brings our trucks up to the bare minimum of safety requirements. Meaning, your as safe as a bone stock Tracker. But, I could be wrong.
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  #4  
Old March 18th, 2004, 12:50 PM
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David, in the instances you've demonstrated those vehicles look like they've been involved in a full on roll, either from height or at speed. That is a completely different scenario to the examples of usage of my cage.

I chose the wrong words maybe when I said about not moving with side impacts, but I stand by what I said they will not fold over in normal use which is what I believed you were implying.

The white 90's cage appears to have moved backwards, but not sideways. Looking at the area in the cab where driver/passenger would be sitting, the cage seems to have served it's purpose well imho. I'm guessing the owners of this survived the crash/roll?
If that truck was cageless? I think they would have been seriously injured or dead.

Anyway I don't want to get into nit picking & we are getting way off topic from the original post, but I'll agree with you that any cage in a violent roll incident will buckle to some degree.

best regards
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  #5  
Old March 18th, 2004, 12:52 PM
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Yes, if you hit something hard enough, in the right spot, and/or with enough weight, its going to bend.
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  #6  
Old March 18th, 2004, 12:55 PM
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Ah, never say never - you never know what could happen (yes, I'm aware of the irony there)!

Still the Safety Devices cage in my 90 isn't a NAS spec one, it's a bit heftier. That's a scary photo of the 90 - just imagine what that would be like without the cage, yikes.

I've attached the best picture I have showing the internals of the cage, not a great pic, but you can see how it's very well braced (I was loading at the time, the stuff in the rear is normally racheted down).

I saw a Disco roll 3 or 4 times at 75 mph. Bog standard Disco - no cage. The car was wrecked but the safety cell didn't deform. After seeing that I'd feel safe in a Disco.

Nick
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  #7  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:06 PM
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The cage on a Defender is not a crash cage like on a race car. It will give and flex under a variety of circumstances. The purpose of 4x4's having these at all is for reasonable rollover protection - not to make the truck impervious to damage when it flips. Think of them like a motorcycle helmet, which will also break in the course of offering protection.

Looking at the picture of the white Defender up top (and knowing nothing of the scenario), it appears the cage functioned as intended: the occupants were protected from major roof failure.

I've seen a variety of rollover pictures involving Defenders, and it seems they manage much better than the average truck (which usually has a fully collapsed window). I'd take it over a Tracker any day.
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  #8  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:10 PM
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Oops. Here's the photo
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  #9  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:11 PM
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rolled D

That is Ben Bibbs old truck. He was crawling up a slope, it got to steep, and the d-90 went ass over tea kettle and the first thing to hit the ground was the windsheild. All the welds on the top corners of the cage failed and that was the end result. He did walk away from that roll with a cut on his head but that was it. He actually drove the truck off the trail afterwards. There were some pictures of it on the web, but I am too lazy to search right now.
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  #10  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:14 PM
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Was that white SW Ben Bibb's? it rolled over backwards, when he was trying to drive up something, i remeber it from his website. I am sure when you have something as heavy as a D-90 fallin back on its roof there isnt a whole lot that would support all the wieght of a D-90. I have seen photos of rolled D-90s and i think the c age is sufficent. I personally saw a FJ 40 roll at speed ~60 did 4 rotations and land upright, its cage supported and gave very little, the occupants of the vehicle walked away. IMHO pickup trucks in general are the worst prepared for roll over for obvious reasons. The comment about the tracker incomparison to the D-90 is really really really stupid, yeah thats the dumbest thing i have heard all day.
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  #11  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
David, in the instances you've demonstrated those vehicles look like they've been involved in a full on roll, either from height or at speed. That is a completely different scenario to the examples of usage of my cage.
Hey brett,

Yeah, we were comparing apples and oranges. When I look at a roll cage I try to figure out if it could handle a roll Anyway, I am very perticular in this respect. I feel that an external cage, like what the NAS have should keep the exo of the vehicle kinda straight, and internal cages only job is to keep the people safe. The white defender was a full on hard core failure. The people living was luck. FYI: He went over backwards. The load contacted the cage first. Thats embarrassing. I am not saying that a bent cage is a failure at all. The red mogs cage worked well in my opinion. If just a few bars bend and you can go on your way, thats a good cage.

Anyway, this is what I meant when I said that from the looks of the exterior cage, it would not hold up. But WAY better than nothing.

edit:

Quote:
The comment about the tracker incomparison to the D-90 is really really really stupid, yeah thats the dumbest thing i have heard all day.
Sorry Phil, but the tracker and the d-90 performed about the same in rollover comparisons. The Safety Devises cage was a mandatory addition when the Defender came to the US because it FAILED the initial crash test for rollovers. Think about it for a second. Look at the two roof lines and materials used. Once again, jumping into a tread with nothing to add. Way to go.
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  #12  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Buckon37s
I'm sure you are fine with your cage. But don't post that it will never move, it will give a lot of the people here a very false sense of security. The cages that Safety Devises sell just brings our trucks up to the bare minimum of safety requirements. Meaning, your as safe as a bone stock Tracker. But, I could be wrong.
I don't really know where you're coming from with this comment.

I never suggested that a Camel spec cage(which is what Nick T & myself have) is impervious to all damage, I merely disagreed with you that the roof bars would fold over with the slightest incident.
I also stated that imho camel spec is stronger than nas spec.

For anyone who after reading my comments now believes they're invincible whilst driving their 90/110. I apologise, You're not.
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  #13  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:27 PM
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Sorry Brett,

I misunderstood. I think we both might have. I meant it would fold in a full roll. Sorry.

edit:

And the cage inside in the picture looks very beefy.
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  #14  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:29 PM
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blow me.
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  #15  
Old March 18th, 2004, 01:32 PM
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Here they are: http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HT...Whiterover.htm

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  #16  
Old March 18th, 2004, 02:27 PM
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I like you Phil, but your just not my type!
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  #17  
Old March 19th, 2004, 05:12 AM
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One thing of note. Over here the vast majority of Land Rovers do not have roll cages.
The results of a survey were published last year for fatalities in actual car accidents, guess what vehicle was number 1 in the listing for survival rates?
Defender.
Closely followed by Discovery & Range Rover.
I'm not trying to lull anyone into a false sense of security, but the real figures show Defenders are pretty safe, without roll cages, air bags, crumple zones, etc.
I know what I would rather be in.
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  #18  
Old March 19th, 2004, 02:25 PM
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*******http://tawayama.com/gear/randompics/seriousoneonside.JPG*********

Didn't budge an inch.
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  #19  
Old March 19th, 2004, 02:34 PM
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Here's the pic.
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  #20  
Old March 19th, 2004, 06:20 PM
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I think everybody has gotten the wrong idea. Defenders are very safe. They have excellent crash statistics because of the uber beefy frame and excellent engineering. In Rollover tests they underperformed a little. Took the rollcage to make them comply with U.S. safety requirements. I was simply pointing out that the rollcage in the picture would bow in a roll. The rollcage provided for NAS is not going to save your roof, maybe your life. Geez, you say one bad thing about these truck, truth or not and....
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