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  #1  
Old February 3rd, 2012, 09:12 PM
johncunningham
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Random Question re: child seats

Long time lurker. First time poster. Please bear with me if I am posting in the wrong place?

I've gotten to the place in life where my wife is on board with me buying a defender. I have been looking at listings for several years and have gone and kicked a few tires over the last eighteen months. I have to admit that I have wanted one of these since I saw my first one on the road in the late 90's.

I haven't been offroad since I was in college and that was in a random collection of 70's era K5 Blazers. Honestly I think I would never be into the "wheeling" that I see some of you guys doing. This is more of a weekend toy for trips to the beach, over sand...

Here's the question. Does anyone have experience with small kids in the side facing rear jump seats for very limited trips? I have three little ones 4,2, and due next month. That means three car seats. I can read that it is basically a no go for those seats on the road.

Does anyone have experience with child safety seats?

Thanks

John
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  #2  
Old February 3rd, 2012, 09:32 PM
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I did with my SW. While they are not ideal, they work just fine. If you plan on longer trips and you have 2 small kids, I would install eye bolts in the floor with a good ratchet strap and put the car seats on the floor facing forward.

There have been several threads about kids safety, and inward facing seats are not safe in an accident, so if you use them, pay extra attention to your surroundings. On that same note, I rode in the front seat of my parents car, in my moms arms, on the way home from the hospital.
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  #3  
Old February 3rd, 2012, 09:39 PM
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I think you may find that 3 seats will be tough from both a mounting and physical space side in the back of the 90 regardless of whether you have jump seats or a bench. I install a seat on the bench of my ST in the summer and my daughter (now 3 1/2) loves it...although my son is over 1 now so I guess I will have two seats in the back this summer!
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  #4  
Old February 3rd, 2012, 10:10 PM
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Thanks for the quick replies. The more I think about it the more i realize they'll only be "little" for a couple of years.
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  #5  
Old February 3rd, 2012, 10:25 PM
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It sounds like you are a good candidate for a five door 110 with the full second row seating.
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  #6  
Old February 3rd, 2012, 11:05 PM
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Definitely you're in 110 territory....if you ever plan on using it that is. Or get ballsy and go 130!
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  #7  
Old February 4th, 2012, 02:27 AM
CDeWan
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seats

I put in a center seat from the u.k. along with the right seat belt and the Jax sits between my wife and I in a Britax car seat. I am looking at the lock and fold Exmoore seats for the rear once he is ready to go into the back. I would not EVER put him in the side facing seats but that is my own preference. The lock and folds are crash tested and come with an integrated seat belts.
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  #8  
Old February 4th, 2012, 04:22 AM
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I rely on the bevy of safety features found on Defenders.

That said, other than a lower speed impact, I doubt my 90's ability to secure any passenger in the event of a highway speed accident.

I have a child seat attached to a side facing rear seat. Not secure at all, but it's only for trips around town at speeds under 45. The seat base foam is so thick and loose that the child seat "sinks" into it causing instability on turns. Like others, I'm probably looking at doing the Exmoor Lock and Folds soon. They should hold the seat more securely, get your kid away from the flimsy side panels, and be more comfortable for the kids/passengers as they grow up. And like others, I grew up riding in the backs of trucks and riding with nothing but shorts on motorized contraptions.

You'll have a booster seat, a toddler seat, and a baby seat. Technically, you won't have the seatbelt space on a ST. You should technically be able to fit all three seats into a SW, but it will be a pain to get the kids into their seats and buckled in with 3 huge child seats in the rear. You would have 0 room for a stroller, bags, cooler, etc, inside the 90 with 3 child seats.

Go 110. I'm eyeing one, I probably should have gone the NAS 110 route last year first instead of the 90 route first.
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  #9  
Old February 4th, 2012, 11:58 AM
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My humble opinion. Long post.

I've got some insight on this topic. I'm an orthopaedic surgeon by trade and one of my interests in research had to do with MVA's and restraints and their relationships with injury, ie femur fracture versus head injury, etc. My other projects had to do with ballistics, ie fackler gel, dead sheep........more fun.

Bottom line is don't do it. Side impacts are just behind front impacts (offset) in terms of statistics. And these (side impacts) are responsible for a lot of deaths and injuries (especially kids - 40%) mostly because of the more limited protection versus front and rear.

If you were even "properly" restrained facing sideways (oxymoron), it would offer little protection with front-offset, or even rear impact, ie bad lateral accel-decel mechanism. And it would be likely bad for side impact too. On top of that, there is just no way to reasonably secure a carseat to a side facing seat.

You can't predict when an accident is going to happen, that's why they're called accidents. Statistics don't lie. Most occur near the home. And it doesn't take "high" speeds to kill or injury. 40MPH is PLENTY to kill and injure. Remember it's the "cummulative" energy, ie two vehicles at 30MPH = 60MPH versus wall. No matter how safely YOU drive, it's all the other idiots I worry about who are texting and blowing through an intersection.

I don't worry about the highways as I can "control" more, ie side-swipes not a big deal, pay attention not to rear-end, etc. The most common things that will kill on the highway are "high speed", alcohol, and falling asleep. These cause loss of control, which cause roll-overs (ejection), and impacts to stationary objects (trees, poles). If you can control that, it is not very likely some other idiot doing the same is going to hurt you.

The same cannot be said of "city driving". Much more likely that you will be hurt by someone else who is doing the wrong thing. So the rationalization of "I'm just doing it for short trips" or "I'm extra careful" just does NOT work. It doesn't. I see that mistake made ALL the time by well intentioned parents who don't restrain properly (and that's in cars with crumple zones and airbags!!!!).

Having said all of that.......couple of good things about our Defenders. Lot's and lot's of mass. Mass usually wins in physics with front, front-offset, and side impacts. Also the way our chassis is designed "helps" with intrusion, ie things coming into the cabin. The modern "unibody" construction of cars and even trucks doesn't do that. Also the "elevated" position helps. Even compared to other trucks and SUV's we are "higher", and that helps too. Thats why the best side-impact testing is now done with height appropriate models consistent with SUV's versus 80's testing done with "car level" barriers smashing into cars, stupid.

I have two Defenders and I take my kids all the time. My older ones (9yo) even in the front. Defenders are safe.

You have to be careful when reading statistics/information on motor vehicles accidents and the recommendations on car seats and position. There is a lot to account for and these recommendations account for "most" things, ie generalities. So be careful not to assume too much or not enough.

For a D90 the ideal position for safety in ANYONE would be a rear bench seat facing REARwards. The OEM benches face forward and that is "ok" but not as good.

Second safest spot would be the CENTER front seat. I put one in mine instead of the center console. It does make it a bit of a pain with gear changes, etc. I actually use the center seat a lot as I put all my crap there, ie bookbag, wife's purse, etc. I use it even more than the console I used to have.

Get rid of the side facing seats. They really should never be used by anyone, even adults.

Better yet, do what I did and get a 110 in addition to your 90.........ha!
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  #10  
Old February 4th, 2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikojo View Post
For a D90 the ideal position for safety in ANYONE would be a rear bench seat facing REARwards. The OEM benches face forward and that is "ok" but not as good.
Does the rear-facing bench need a headrest? I really want to install a bench that way in my truck...seems the most convenient way to allow for ingress/egress from the rear. Just worried about whiplash.
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  #11  
Old February 4th, 2012, 02:21 PM
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John, thanks for the information... Great write up!
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  #12  
Old February 4th, 2012, 05:50 PM
icurnmedic
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I had a 1994 with the rear seat facing rearwards. I agree , is much safer from a physical standpoint , but also much more convenient loading and unloading. Problem is, check with your state, some states will not allow this configuration. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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  #13  
Old February 4th, 2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Does the rear-facing bench need a headrest? I really want to install a bench that way in my truck...seems the most convenient way to allow for ingress/egress from the rear. Just worried about whiplash.
I have headrests in mine. They are particularly a good idea with rear facing rear seats as front impact becomes equivalent of rear impact.

This is what I've got in mine. http://3rdrowseating.net/base-models/

------ Follow up post added February 4th, 2012 09:02 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by icurnmedic View Post
I had a 1994 with the rear seat facing rearwards. I agree , is much safer from a physical standpoint , but also much more convenient loading and unloading. Problem is, check with your state, some states will not allow this configuration. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Didn't know about the state law.........for all I know I am "illegal" but doesn't make sense as this is truly safest.

By the way, the reason rear seats don't face rearwards in tranes, planes, and automobiles is purely for COMFORT and not safety. Many people get motion sick traveling backwards so that's why they are the way they are.........otherwise from a safety standpoint, they should be rear facing.
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  #14  
Old February 4th, 2012, 08:28 PM
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Excellent write up John. Sound advice for all of us, and applicable to our hobby to boot. Bottom line, though, is no matter what you drive, where you sit, or how you're restrained, it's the act of being on the road that is dangerous.


There is no excuse for not taking in all the facts, especially as easily attained in today's world, and applying as much mitigation as financially, common sensibly, and legally possible to prevent injury or death. I'm a Lightfighter for Uncle Sam, and I'd be criminally negligent if I let my Soldiers or myself do it the "easy" way which subsequently resulted in a death.

That said, it is perspective. I grew up riding horses, quad riding, snow skiing at ridiculous speeds, logging, etc, without the use of hardly any protective gear (no helmets). Thats not to mention riding in the backs of trucks or the lack of seat belts period in a lot of farm trucks. As much risk as I take with my boy in the side facing seat which I know is not safe, I wouldn't let a nanny drive my boy in any rig but a mid/full size AWD wagon. I trust myself and my wife to drive like we're riding motorcycles, but if anyone else drives my kid, I try to mitigate every risk. This is probably not the right answer, but it is what I choose to do. Thankfully, I've never been in an injury accident, nor have I ever been in a motor vehicle accident as a driver.
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  #15  
Old February 4th, 2012, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikojo View Post
Having said all of that.......couple of good things about our Defenders. Lot's and lot's of mass. Mass usually wins in physics with front, front-offset, and side impacts. Also the way our chassis is designed "helps" with intrusion, ie things coming into the cabin. The modern "unibody" construction of cars and even trucks doesn't do that. Also the "elevated" position helps. Even compared to other trucks and SUV's we are "higher", and that helps too. Thats why the best side-impact testing is now done with height appropriate models consistent with SUV's versus 80's testing done with "car level" barriers smashing into cars, stupid.
Good write-up John! Regarding the above, what's your input on trucks without rollcages, ie the non-NAS imports? I keep toying with the idea of putting an external cage on, but then always seem to stray away from it. Any benefit in an impact, or are they really just for rollover?
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  #16  
Old February 5th, 2012, 01:21 AM
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Don't know enough about rollcages with reference to impact. The internal type might help a bit from intrusion but can also "hurt" as they are potential area to strike (head, leg, arm).

I would say they are only good for rollover. It's funny because most of the trucks ROW have no cages. Although I've seen pics of trucks that have rolled it doesn't seem to be that common, but rollovers with fatality/serious injury are not too common unless at high speeds. And rollovers at low speed won't usually result in much injury. Again, driver is more "in control".

Having said that, I want my 110 to have a cage but don't feel that strongly about it.
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  #17  
Old February 5th, 2012, 01:25 AM
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Don't like the side facing seats for anyone of any age. Don't do it!
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  #18  
Old February 5th, 2012, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikojo View Post
My humble opinion. Long post.

I've got some insight on this topic. I'm an orthopaedic surgeon by trade and one of my interests in research had to do with MVA's and restraints and their relationships with injury, ie femur fracture versus head injury, etc. My other projects had to do with ballistics, ie fackler gel, dead sheep........more fun.

Bottom line is don't do it. Side impacts are just behind front impacts (offset) in terms of statistics. And these (side impacts) are responsible for a lot of deaths and injuries (especially kids - 40%) mostly because of the more limited protection versus front and rear.

If you were even "properly" restrained facing sideways (oxymoron), it would offer little protection with front-offset, or even rear impact, ie bad lateral accel-decel mechanism. And it would be likely bad for side impact too. On top of that, there is just no way to reasonably secure a carseat to a side facing seat.

You can't predict when an accident is going to happen, that's why they're called accidents. Statistics don't lie. Most occur near the home. And it doesn't take "high" speeds to kill or injury. 40MPH is PLENTY to kill and injure. Remember it's the "cummulative" energy, ie two vehicles at 30MPH = 60MPH versus wall. No matter how safely YOU drive, it's all the other idiots I worry about who are texting and blowing through an intersection.

I don't worry about the highways as I can "control" more, ie side-swipes not a big deal, pay attention not to rear-end, etc. The most common things that will kill on the highway are "high speed", alcohol, and falling asleep. These cause loss of control, which cause roll-overs (ejection), and impacts to stationary objects (trees, poles). If you can control that, it is not very likely some other idiot doing the same is going to hurt you.

The same cannot be said of "city driving". Much more likely that you will be hurt by someone else who is doing the wrong thing. So the rationalization of "I'm just doing it for short trips" or "I'm extra careful" just does NOT work. It doesn't. I see that mistake made ALL the time by well intentioned parents who don't restrain properly (and that's in cars with crumple zones and airbags!!!!).

Having said all of that.......couple of good things about our Defenders. Lot's and lot's of mass. Mass usually wins in physics with front, front-offset, and side impacts. Also the way our chassis is designed "helps" with intrusion, ie things coming into the cabin. The modern "unibody" construction of cars and even trucks doesn't do that. Also the "elevated" position helps. Even compared to other trucks and SUV's we are "higher", and that helps too. Thats why the best side-impact testing is now done with height appropriate models consistent with SUV's versus 80's testing done with "car level" barriers smashing into cars, stupid.

I have two Defenders and I take my kids all the time. My older ones (9yo) even in the front. Defenders are safe.

You have to be careful when reading statistics/information on motor vehicles accidents and the recommendations on car seats and position. There is a lot to account for and these recommendations account for "most" things, ie generalities. So be careful not to assume too much or not enough.

For a D90 the ideal position for safety in ANYONE would be a rear bench seat facing REARwards. The OEM benches face forward and that is "ok" but not as good.

Second safest spot would be the CENTER front seat. I put one in mine instead of the center console. It does make it a bit of a pain with gear changes, etc. I actually use the center seat a lot as I put all my crap there, ie bookbag, wife's purse, etc. I use it even more than the console I used to have.

Get rid of the side facing seats. They really should never be used by anyone, even adults.

Better yet, do what I did and get a 110 in addition to your 90.........ha!

That's some great information! Great post!
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  #19  
Old February 5th, 2012, 09:51 AM
Jase
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Kids seat

John,

I was also concerned about safety in the 90 for my kids. The jumpseats and stock rear bench are not ideal. I did not like the low back design of the stock bench and replaced it with a MasterCraft bench with head rests. The Mastercraft does an excellent job of securing the kids and was a simple install (uses stock belt locations).

If you want to get a look, I'm in MA and you're more than welcome to stop by.

Jase
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  #20  
Old February 5th, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikojo View Post
I have headrests in mine. They are particularly a good idea with rear facing rear seats as front impact becomes equivalent of rear impact.

This is what I've got in mine. http://3rdrowseating.net/base-models/
Would you mind posting a few photos of this installed?

Thanks,
Alex
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