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  #1  
Old March 17th, 2010, 03:31 PM
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Tony Lawson
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PTO questions - again

So the 110 shows up, and it has a PTO - shaft up to front bumper. Some of the u-joints are lumpy, but easy fixes. Bonus. Thanks Julian.

I've seen a few threads, but seems knowledge is....limited. A couple things I'd like to figure out:

Is the PTO output direct off the transmission (1:1) or after t-case reduction? (with out knowledge, putting the T-case in nuetral and engaging PTO would be the next step. I have a mechanical tach and tach strobe).

What power can I put throught the PTO? Full engine HP? Shaft seems a little small for that, but what IS the rating?

My interest would be to run an HPU that can then...run a winch, a snowblower, catapult, low-rider suspension, etc.

any knowledge would be appreciated. All I could find on web was that 'they are rare'. Nothing on Ashcroft site.

thanks
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  #2  
Old March 17th, 2010, 03:59 PM
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Running hydraulics is in the plans for the 109 project. I am torn as to where to take power and I'm leaning towards a crank drive rather than a PTO. The direct drive will always be engaged and there's no daffy shaft linkage. You have to be careful about sizing the pump tho. Many many pumps out there. Kinda depends on what you are going to be doing. The most versatile thing would be a pin on mount for a snowplow that you could modify to accept a Bobcat style quick-tach plate. That way you wouldn't have to shlep around a mass of metal up front. Just attach the plow hardware and off you go. The other option would be a rear subframe that you could, again, pin onto frame mounts. This could have a regular tractor three point type attachment system. From the subframe you could attach any kind of implement...backhoe, mower, chipper, log splitter, etc. This is how most compact tractors are set up these days.
Your other problem is plumbing. You'll want at least a ten gallon tank. You'll have to run filler hose, a filter bracket and the supply hoses along with the control spools. Joysick loader control would be my choice. Some kind of cooler would not be a bad idea.
The other thing that would help is some kind of governor or speed control. My old Series diesel had a throttle position crank deal that could keep the engine going at a set speed. If you are running a backhoe, you don't want the engine bogging down.

All this can be done relatively easily. It's not too scientific.
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  #3  
Old March 17th, 2010, 04:52 PM
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Tony Lawson
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part of the reason I want to do hydraulics is - well - in my other life, I design hydraulics for subsea robotics. So I have knowledge and access to tools (hose fitting swagers, benders, etc) as well as to some electronic servo valves, manifolds, and controls - and even some slightly 'used' VD pumps; 25-50hp - so the design side is pretty easy for me. I'd mount the pump at the PTO shaft output at the t-case to get rid of the PTO shaft (which may have to go anyway when I go to LHD, but not sure yet). Then it's just plumbing lines to where I need them.

but as you said, sizing the pump is key - and without rpm and power available numbers, it's kinda hard to start.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 05:41 PM
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I would lean towards your standard issue tractor PTO pump. If you are going to run implements it'll give you enough GPM and pressure to operate pretty much anything. With your diesel you should have plenty of oomph. A Prince PTO pump is about 500 clams. Available at Surplus Center.
I think you should install one of these on the rear of the Rover. Oh and have this to do your mowing
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  #5  
Old March 17th, 2010, 09:06 PM
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Oh, I want that thing. It goes to a winch.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 10:08 PM
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I can't imagine the output is 1:1 on the PTO. Usually there is some significant reduction, like 1.5:1. The small shaft diameter may be mostly a matter of fit. The full engine hp is available, but the dinky shaft will likely be the safety valve. There is a reason why PTO drives are not popular.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 10:52 PM
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The reduction is in the winch. Let's put it this way, I never used a D90 PTO winch, but a series Koenig winch will break 3/8th cable before it breaks the shaft.

There is also a factory land rover PTO designed for a hydraulic pump. If I were the original thread starter, I would find one of those. There is an outfit in the Uk that sells them from mild to wild as well.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 07:35 AM
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>There is also a factory land rover PTO designed for a hydraulic pump. If I were the original thread starter, I would find one of those. There is an outfit in the Uk that sells them from mild to wild as well.

Those Brits do some whack-ass engineering for sure. Nothing like chasing down the arcane part that will work less well than something normal.

Not trying to poo poo your suggestion Ron, which is a good one, but if it were me, I'd look locally.
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  #9  
Old March 18th, 2010, 11:09 AM
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Hey Tony, good to read you here.

I would also agree you should look local. But that is the extent of my input

When do you want to start working on the catapult?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 01:22 PM
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Tony Lawson
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Hey Steve,

well, right after the LHD conversion, the turbo intercooler, radiator, and pump mods, and the soft-top/roll cage conversion and over-molding projects....

thanks for the input guys. I'll crawl under and tach the PTO to see what the reduction is. My gut is that it will be 1:1 off the tranny, unless there is a seperate gear down - otherwise, engaging the PTO with the T-Case in neutral wouldn't work.

For PTO power, I can measure the shaft (and whatever keyway holds the output if I can ever get the allen to un-sieze) - this will give me a max torque. Divide by 2 for FOS. and then HP = T * RPM(max)/5252.... or whatever RPM the PTO outputs at a motor RPM of 1800(max motor torque/best operating point). I'll post up what I get.
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Old March 19th, 2010, 07:06 AM
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J. Michael McCaig
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It runs off of the transmission main shaft...at least that's the way the one in my series works. You will be able to vary the PTO speed by choosing a transmission gear. Slower in first gear - faster in fourth and reverse direction in reverse. When you put your foot on the clutch, it stops.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 06:36 PM
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Mike Hammond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRover View Post
It runs off of the transmission main shaft...at least that's the way the one in my series works. You will be able to vary the PTO speed by choosing a transmission gear. Slower in first gear - faster in fourth and reverse direction in reverse. When you put your foot on the clutch, it stops.
Yep that's what I was going to chip in.

A mate had a mechanical PTO winch, and actually bent the chassis.
It was anchored by the rear cross member and the front was hooked to a fallen oak tree that was in the way, two snatch blocks were involved in the rigging, trebbling the pull more or less and the rear cross member bowed out before the oak was ripped to bits and moved out the way. The shafts took it all in their stride. There's a shear pin to prevent overloading.
The down side is winching and driving at the same time is problematic.

I think Maxidrive (Australia make hydraulic pumps that fit on the back of LT230's
Just done a quick search and Maxidrive have closed down
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Old March 24th, 2010, 12:20 AM
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Apparently, Superwinch also makes a hydraulic PTO output adapter for the LT-230 transfer case to go with their hydraulic winches. But it seems to only be available in the UK, not the USA. I believe that it's JUST the adapter they sell, which takes standard pumps. It's frustrating as hell to figure out data on this stuff, you might be able to get the info from Superwinch UK for their adapter.

And like the others said, it feeds off of the transmission output shaft. So any gearing reduction would be based on the transmission ratios you have.

Another option that I've seen, which I've never looked into much myself, is that some guys run a hydraulic pump right off of the front of the engine... tied directly to the crankshaft pulley. But that all depends on your available room, which a 3.9 V8 doesn't have with a stock radiator, so I never even considered the option.

-Hans

P.S. designing underwater ROV's? Now THAT sounds like one cool as hell job, and another example of why I wish I went for some type of engineering degree instead of aviation. Being an enthusiastic hobbiest can only get you so far in this world.
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  #14  
Old March 24th, 2010, 05:12 AM
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Jamie Austin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Apparently, Superwinch also makes a hydraulic PTO output adapter for the LT-230 transfer case to go with their hydraulic winches. But it seems to only be available in the UK, not the USA. I believe that it's JUST the adapter they sell, which takes standard pumps. .


Yeah, it's more or less just a drive flange, with the cast aluminium bit that bolts to the back of the T/case.

I assume you need to make up your own bracketry (or available from superwinch?) to bolt a pump to the back of the t/case.

tha superwinch PTO drive, that bolts onto the back of the case to run the front winch, is very vulnerable, it hangs down below the transfer case by a few inches, and is only cast aluminium. several users of these on the various UK LR forums have said how theirs have got broken off whilst off road. neat design huh?

some of these users have managed to re-engineer the PTO drive to angle it around several degrees, to keep the low down bit more tucked up inside the chassis rails.

Here is a downloadable .pdf photocopy of the installation instructions for the PTO drive

A link to LR4x4 with some piccies of the broken PTO drive and hot it should fit in place
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:57 AM
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J. Michael McCaig
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Quote:
Another option that I've seen, which I've never looked into much myself, is that some guys run a hydraulic pump right off of the front of the engine... tied directly to the crankshaft pulley. But that all depends on your available room, which a 3.9 V8 doesn't have with a stock radiator, so I never even considered the option.
It's not so much the radiator as it is the plenium for the fuel injection system. I stayed with a carb when I did my 4.6 conversion in my '84 110 partly because of the hydraulic pump.
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  #16  
Old March 24th, 2010, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LRover View Post
It's not so much the radiator as it is the plenium for the fuel injection system. I stayed with a carb when I did my 4.6 conversion in my '84 110 partly because of the hydraulic pump.
Wow, that's actually different than what I had seen.... and another neat setup.

The others I had seen literally have the pump connected directly to the crankshaft pulley via a short shaft, and are in front of the engine, inline with the crank.

Though I've only seen pictures/drawings of them not installed in trucks, never seen an installed version.

-Hans
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