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  #121  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:17 PM
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FYI Walmart stopped selling guns.
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  #122  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:23 PM
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Yea, and I can just walk into a Walmart and get that so easy. I love this debate on how the gun protects us. What is the sole purpose of a gun? The gun is made to kill is it not? It's really not made to protect because if the gun was made to protect then it's doing a terrible job at it. If the all powerful gun was able to protect me from every bad person out there then we shouldn't have any murders right? I completely agree that gun abiding citizens who are sane and intelligent are not the problem. We all know this, but are we blind to the fact that a gun was so easy to get and be used, in the intent of how it was made in this case? That's like saying, hey lets not put brakes cars and just ram it with another car to stop it...
Sarin gas? You can't buy it at Walmart. You can however buy diesel fuel and fertilizer. If I remember correctly it was used to make a bomb and killed hundreds in Oklahoma. Guns are not the problem.
Guns can protect you. I'll give you two occasions. About 30 years ago I was working nights. Between work and my house was a bad part of town. It was 03:30. I was at red light. There was very little traffic. There was a person walking in the intersection yelling at cars that were driving through. He was high on something. He sees me and starts coming in my direction at a quick pace. I had very little time to react. I didn't have time to call 911, hell, I didn't have a cell phone. I pulled my gun, a S/W 357, he was about 10 steps away when he saw the gun. He stopped in his tracts and did an about face and walked away.
Fast forward, about 10 years ago I was building my house on a large wooded lot in the country. I had been robbed prior. Someone came onto property when I was out of town and stole everything that was not nailed down. Crime can happen anywhere. A few months later I'm working in the yard when I hear a pickup truck coming down the drive way. I go to my Rover and get my Glock 40 model 27. I position myself behind a tree. The truck comes down the driveway with one person driving and four in the bed of the truck. They were not lost, they were not looking for me they were looking to take things. They drive past me and are now in a position were they can't drive forward. I take note of the plate number and then show myself armed and tell them they have 10 seconds to turn around.aroundaround
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  #123  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:27 PM
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A lot of circular reasoning here. Folks have their minds made up on the gun issue and see the world through their lens of choice.

Pro gun folks see it as justifying their world view and they dig in.

Antigun folks see it as reconfirming their world view and they dig in.

Makes threads like this useless because no ones mind will be changed and folks who are generally civil to one another end being something less.

Granted this thread is far more civil then others that I have seen.
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  #124  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Think about how many more deaths there would be if there weren't regulations on safety devices in vehicles.
And we drive our beloved Defenders PRECISLY because they lack almost all of those safety devices!
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  #125  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
Think about how many more deaths there would be if there weren't regulations on safety devices in vehicles.
Your Rover does not have some safety devices. Should the government ban your Rover?
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  #126  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CavemanDiesel View Post
Your Rover does not have some safety devices. Should the government ban your Rover?
haven't they already?
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  #127  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
FYI Walmart stopped selling guns.
Did that fix the problem? Did that stop any bad guy from getting a gun?
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  #128  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
Yea, and I can just walk into a Walmart and get that so easy. I love this debate on how the gun protects us. What is the sole purpose of a gun? The gun is made to kill is it not? It's really not made to protect because if the gun was made to protect then it's doing a terrible job at it. If the all powerful gun was able to protect me from every bad person out there then we shouldn't have any murders right? I completely agree that gun abiding citizens who are sane and intelligent are not the problem. We all know this, but are we blind to the fact that a gun was so easy to get and be used, in the intent of how it was made in this case? That's like saying, hey lets not put brakes cars and just ram it with another car to stop it...
I never comment on bullshit like this but this is silly logic. I'd wager that more times that you'd believe, that gun on the waist of an officer or security guard at your bank has protected many without even coming out of its holster. If we only knew how many robberies or violent acts were diverted or halted by just a perp seeing an officer or guard with a gun. So in that respect its "protected" someone right? Does the secret service or armored car drivers carry slingshots? Does a car protect you if it's hailing out even if you aren't driving it?
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  #129  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:46 PM
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I think you can keep your guns and still have logical gun control laws.

- Why is there a law that requires the FBI to destroy all approved gun purchaser records within 24 hours of approval. Keep that 150kb of data somewhere.

- We have to register cars pretty much everywhere, why not every firearm? Enjoy your 2nd amendment right by doing a bit of paperwork.

- Preventing a felon from buying a gun at a gun show is somehow not a law?

- It's illegal for the ATF to make gun dealers submit inventories. Who knows where all those guns go?

Repeal those laws? have a seat that's going to take a while and a billion dollars:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-...verview=closed

edit: I'm a gun owner
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  #130  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
And we drive our beloved Defenders PRECISLY because they lack almost all of those safety devices!


I bought mine because I wanted a vehicle that wouldn't depreciate. Part of the reason for my move to an NAS 90 was for the roll cage which I believe makes it safer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavemanDiesel View Post
Your Rover does not have some safety devices. Should the government ban your Rover?


They introduced legislation requiring all new vehicles sold in the US to have airbags, which I think is a good thing. It would suck if the government were to ban all vehicles without airbags, but everyone would probably be safer.
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  #131  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:04 PM
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To quote C.S. Lewis “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
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  #132  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
I think you can keep your guns and still have logical gun control laws. - Why is there a law that requires the FBI to destroy all approved gun purchaser records within 24 hours of approval. Keep that 150kb of data somewhere. - We have to register cars pretty much everywhere, why not every firearm? Enjoy your 2nd amendment right by doing a bit of paperwork. - Preventing a felon from buying a gun at a gun show is somehow not a law? - It's illegal for the ATF to make gun dealers submit inventories. Who knows where all those guns go? Repeal those laws? have a seat that's going to take a while and a billion dollars: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-...verview=closed
^this^
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  #133  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:21 PM
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This is an "unwinnable" argument. The anti crowd is unmovable till the have a gun pointed at them and wish they had one. The pro crowd is unmovable till a loved one is killed by a gun. We each have our reasons and it's not worth loosing a friendship here trying to change somones unmovable opinion.
Enjoy the day. ��
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  #134  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
I bought mine because I wanted a vehicle that wouldn't depreciate. Part of the reason for my move to an NAS 90 was for the roll cage which I believe makes it safer. They introduced legislation requiring all new vehicles sold in the US to have airbags, which I think is a good thing. It would suck if the government were to ban all vehicles without airbags, but everyone would probably be safer.
How about motorcycles? They are very unsafe. Should the government ban them. How about small cars? How about fat or sugar in our diet? Maybe the government should require that we wear helmets and pads all the time. That would make us safer. I know, the government should out law alcohol. Wait a minute, they tried that and it didn't work.
I just think we the people should be able to do what we want to. We are free people, or are we.
I can do this all day, but I won't change anybody's mind. Your free to think what you want. At least until the thought police get you.

------ Follow up post added June 14th, 2016 02:49 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
To quote C.S. Lewis “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
Amen, we must be students of history.
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  #135  
Old June 14th, 2016, 03:24 PM
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Not to get off topic but I think the biggest problem is the Internet.

How can you fight against someone that can post videos, have chat rooms, or call for violence from some cave somewhere and connect with a loner/weirdo sitting in a basement thousands of miles away. It is a numbers game that is being played and all you need to do is inspire a few wack jobs to create havoc and everyone goes nuts.

In addition, even small mass killings make the news and go worldwide the same day. In the not to distant past you would not even hear about anything unless it happened within 50 miles of your house.
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  #136  
Old June 14th, 2016, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CavemanDiesel View Post
Amen, we must be students of history.
It's purposely not taught anymore.
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  #137  
Old June 14th, 2016, 04:03 PM
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Hmm, what if instead of fighting about guns we just decided to limit the acquisition of implements of mass murder? That would make sense. Unless of course we had certain "sacred cows" about which we refused to even consider a decent public policy. This issue has become a meta-issue just like abortion - it's not the issue, it's the issue about the issue. Guns signify freedom, so don't compromise gun ownership unless you hate freedom. Abortion kills babies, so don't support legal abortion unless you hate life. Vote accordingly. The fallacies are built in, but we swallow the dish as-served. It's wonderful to get people emotionally charged instead of understanding and explaining complex public policy issues.

I'd like to identify myself as against mass murder. That means I'd like to see it become more difficult for would be mass murderers to plan, provision, and carry out their plots. I'm in favor of restrictions on the ability of private citizens to purchase and use AP mines, white phosphorous, cluster munitions, and high capacity fully and semi automatic weaponry.

I guess that makes me a liberal...
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  #138  
Old June 14th, 2016, 04:16 PM
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I guess that makes me a liberal...
Maybe in Texas, but you'd still be breaking bread with the far far right up here in CA! You'd be in good company, however.
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  #139  
Old June 15th, 2016, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Greenbull View Post
Geez that last analogy, hmmm I don't know? Did you ever study logic? Most guns have safety's , (following your example) aren't those like brakes? Can't I run someone over with or without brakes? Walmart doesn't sell handguns, but Can't I go into Harbor Freight and get a 9 dollar machete'? I knew Seal that could kill you with his thumb or your fork...
Logic? Yes, and we are talking about analogies here... The safety off is equivalent to the car running. You either drive it or not. And if you drive it there are no brakes. Understand? I know this is a debate but come on.

Serious question. Let's say there were zero guns in this country. All things aside, would there be 100+ murders since Orlando in this country? Because there were.

I'm not against guns. I just don't get how people don't see the correlation. It's so simple. Guns are being used to kill people. Am I wrong? Cars might be involved in a death case but not too often a murder case.
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  #140  
Old June 15th, 2016, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ini88 View Post

Serious question. Let's say there were zero guns in this country. All things aside, would there be 100+ murders since Orlando in this country? Because there were.

I'm not against guns. I just don't get how people don't see the correlation. It's so simple. Guns are being used to kill people.
Too simple. You will not eliminate the illegal guns, therefore your simple question is always false. Yes guns are correlated; however, taking the majority of law a bidding citizens guns won't stop criminals. It's against the law to murder but murder exists. Maybe we should get rid of people and solve the problem all together... wait that does not compute. Anything can be used to kill. Taking away the tool won't change the action, just the tool.

Better background checks that aren't antiquated makes sense, but that's not what the Left is calling for, is it?
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