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  #101  
Old June 14th, 2016, 08:38 AM
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No surprise there.

As far as this entire incident goes, Mateen's targeting and timing potentially demonstrates a very well thought out plan. To conduct this attack in the midst of a very contentious election year where debates on gun rights, LGBT rights and immigration laws were already at boiling point, shows some sophistication and patience. I'm sure AQ/ISIS have their sandals kicked up on some mud wall and are enjoying the sight of our country panic and implode as we bicker about the usual what-if's/cars kill people too/concealed carry BS. We're unraveling ourselves.
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  #102  
Old June 14th, 2016, 08:46 AM
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And that is one of the conundrums about Islam and Sharia law is that it is completely hostile to women. This misogyny is practiced, defended and promoted in the name of Islam and Sharia law. From the honor killings of rape victims to it being legal to beat your wife for misbehaving to female genital mutilation (FGM) of young women in order to curb their sexual desires and preserve their chastity the true "War on Women" is being waged in the name of Islam. All well documented.

So in a Muslim country men do not socialize with women (not supposed to anyway) so they only go to places of amusement and leisure with other men. Men show great affection, kissing and hand holding, toward each other but it is forbidden to show public displays of affection to women for fear the devil will take hold and she will lead the man to sin.

Yet at the same time homosexuality is forbidden in Islam with punishments varying throughout the Islamic world from public execution (between 4,000 to 6,000 homosexuals have been put to death in Iran alone since the Revolution) to imprisonment to 50 lashes.

So here you have this perfect storm of a fatalistic religious based society that hates homosexuality yet seems to promote it because it doesn't allow young men and women to socialize or touch or show affection in anyway for fear of sin. So because Islamic/Arab culture has historically been segregated, emotions and feelings are channeled to the same sex. So no wonder ol' Omar was supremely fucked up in the head, but if you think Omar was fucked up in a vacuum you would be tragically wrong.

As a side note why you on the left are so in love with such a brutal and repressive (to women and homosexuals) religion is beyond me.
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  #103  
Old June 14th, 2016, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt_110 View Post
No surprise there.

As far as this entire incident goes, Mateen's targeting and timing potentially demonstrates a very well thought out plan. To conduct this attack in the midst of a very contentious election year where debates on gun rights, LGBT rights and immigration laws were already at boiling point, shows some sophistication and patience. I'm sure AQ/ISIS have their sandals kicked up on some mud wall and are enjoying the sight of our country panic and implode as we bicker about the usual what-if's/cars kill people too/concealed carry BS. We're unraveling ourselves.
I think you are giving him way too much credit ... this dude was a loser who couldn't reconcile his homosexuality with his religion. He walked into a gun shop, exercising his rights as the US citizen he is, and then attacked the people he was conflicted about.

Its the same MO as shooting up a school / church / place of work.

The only difference is he made some calls to try and martyr himself, likely as a some weak attempt to self rationalize what he was doing.

This guy was a US Citizen who became alienated in his own country and killed his fellow citizens.
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  #104  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:01 AM
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And that is one of the conundrums about Islam and Sharia law is that it is completely hostile to women. This misogyny is practiced, defended and promoted in the name of Islam and Sharia law. From the honor killings of rape victims to it being legal to beat your wife for misbehaving to female genital mutilation (FGM) of young women in order to curb their sexual desires and preserve their chastity the true "War on Women" is being waged in the name of Islam. All well documented.

So in a Muslim country men do not socialize with women (not supposed to anyway) so they only go to places of amusement and leisure with other men. Men show great affection, kissing and hand holding, toward each other but it is forbidden to show public displays of affection to women for fear the devil will take hold and she will lead the man to sin.

Yet at the same time homosexuality is forbidden in Islam with punishments varying throughout the Islamic world from public execution (between 4,000 to 6,000 homosexuals have been put to death in Iran alone since the Revolution) to imprisonment to 50 lashes.

So here you have this perfect storm of a fatalistic religious based society that hates homosexuality yet seems to promote it because it doesn't allow young men and women to socialize or touch or show affection in anyway for fear of sin. So because Islamic/Arab culture has historically been segregated, emotions and feelings are channeled to the same sex. So no wonder ol' Omar was supremely fucked up in the head, but if you think Omar was fucked up in a vacuum you would be tragically wrong.

As a side note why you on the left are so in love with such a brutal and repressive (to women and homosexuals) religion is beyond me.
I'm against all religion equally but i respect the individuals rights to practice or otherwise.
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  #105  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:06 AM
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My fb buddy said something interesting. The fact that we can't even have legitimate conversations about ideologies that impoverish, imprison and inspire people to commit acts of terror in fear of being politically incorrect and instead divert attention toward inanimate objects as the core issue is exactly why we are not making any progress. Charleston killings- attack the Confederate flag and ideologies perceived as racist. Islamic terrorism- ignore the ideology, blame the guns.... until they move on to car bombs, ied's, stabbings, suicide bombs, all other methods they have mastered to promote their agenda, just as they have done around the world. The push to give up the freedoms that have made our country great in order to live in a government controlled, socialist society where politicians force people to accept immorality, repress free speech and deny the constitutional rights of the citizens, is an old communist story.




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  #106  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:08 AM
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Its good to see the right so progressive about gay rights now though. Maybe it will calm down all the bathroom policeman and anti-marry whoever you want folks since it's a brave new day to stand in solidarity with folks that just days ago were going to the christan version of hell too (or I guess they still are).
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  #107  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
My fb buddy said something interesting. The fact that we can't even have legitimate conversations about ideologies that impoverish, imprison and inspire people to commit acts of terror in fear of being politically incorrect and instead divert attention toward inanimate objects as the core issue is exactly why we are not making any progress. Charleston killings- attack the Confederate flag and ideologies perceived as racist. Islamic terrorism- ignore the ideology, blame the guns.... until they move on to car bombs, ied's, stabbings, suicide bombs, all other methods they have mastered to promote their agenda, just as they have done around the world. The push to give up the freedoms that have made our country great in order to live in a government controlled, socialist society where politicians force people to accept immorality, repress free speech and deny the constitutional rights of the citizens, is an old communist story.
.
We can't have a conversation about education, creationism, abortion, LGBT rights or even bloody toilets ... We attack each other under the veil of pseudo reconcilitary arguments.

People want to push their ideology onto others and that drives extremism as that ideology pushes back. We shape the narrative of events to reinforce our position. The above paragraph does nothing to consider the resolution of these issues cannot be a 'winner' and a 'loser'. It presents an olive branch of collaboration yet focuses and attacks at the same time.

There has to be a mutually agreeable solution to these challenges.

The reason we can't start the conversation is that we are so entrenched in our own ideology that we are unwilling to accept that an outcome will likely have some compromise.
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  #108  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:39 AM
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Phrase for the day is "self radicalization".

It's easier than ever to publish a particular point if view by radio, TV and Internet. The latter creates access to a worldwide audience.
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  #109  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:50 AM
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Ray, when have you ever heard me say that homosexuals are going to hell? As for this idiotic bathroom bullshit it is little more than political smoke and mirrors hell the pro LGBT activists put the number of transgender citizens at .3 % of the population which is probably overstated by a factor of 10 but who knows for sure. It is however a non issue for me. As for gay marriage I don't believe the government should be in the marriage business in the first place and until long after the founding of this country they (the govt) weren't. Civil unions should suffice for all. And if you want that union blessed by God then fine go to a church, that is an individuals business - not mine. You are painting with too wide of a brush on this my friend.
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  #110  
Old June 14th, 2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ray_G View Post
Its good to see the right so progressive about gay rights now though..
What did I read yesterday?
They have the right to marry, they should also have the right to carry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
As for gay marriage I don't believe the government should be in the marriage business in the first place and until long after the founding of this country they (the govt) weren't. Civil unions should suffice for all.
Someone now dig up the video of the presidential candidates flip-flopping over the years on the gay marriage issue depending on the political climate...


This should be the perfect year for a 3rd party President.


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  #111  
Old June 14th, 2016, 10:27 AM
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You are painting with too wide of a brush on this my friend.
Actually that wasn't really directed at you; you strike me as rather libertarian vice religious right-it was more a perspective watching the bulk of the right struggle with reconciling all this.

I would say that broad brushes abound though-not just mine, but the ideas that some people are espousing about Islam is, quite frankly, incredibly broad and sweeping (and wrong on many levels). I mentioned this in a sidebar but after much of my adult life spent fighting or traveling solely throughout this region (absent my recent trip to China, finally), being labeled a Middle East RAO, a masters in national security, etc...I've realized I don't know shit beyond the surface. So folks will have to pardon me if I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge this board has in counterterrorism, radical Islam, and Muslims as a whole.

Or to be my usual dick self; what do I know. I just live here...I must have just missed everyone the last time I was in Lahore, or Erbil, or Beirut, or Sana'a....
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  #112  
Old June 14th, 2016, 10:28 AM
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This should be the perfect year for a 3rd party President.


.
Yes please!!!!!! I know for sure I'm not voting for Trump nor Hillary.
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  #113  
Old June 14th, 2016, 10:31 AM
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they all do from that part of the world. The shit I've seen.....
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  #114  
Old June 14th, 2016, 10:39 AM
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Yes please!!!!!! I know for sure I'm not voting for Trump nor Hillary.
Johnson/Weld!

Gary Johnson and Bill Weld Interview With Stephen Colbert - The Atlantic


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  #115  
Old June 14th, 2016, 11:34 AM
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Umm, sarin gas would have been much more effective and lethal
Yea, and I can just walk into a Walmart and get that so easy.

I love this debate on how the gun protects us. What is the sole purpose of a gun? The gun is made to kill is it not? It's really not made to protect because if the gun was made to protect then it's doing a terrible job at it. If the all powerful gun was able to protect me from every bad person out there then we shouldn't have any murders right? I completely agree that gun abiding citizens who are sane and intelligent are not the problem. We all know this, but are we blind to the fact that a gun was so easy to get and be used, in the intent of how it was made in this case?

That's like saying, hey lets not put brakes cars and just ram it with another car to stop it...
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  #116  
Old June 14th, 2016, 11:44 AM
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Daniel, what you are actually saying is that if in 2014, 9,967 people died in drunk driving crashes - one every 53 minutes - and 290,000 were injured in drunk driving crashes, then cars are killing too many people. We need to ban all private citizen cars now to prevent more deaths from happening. Cars are killing people!
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  #117  
Old June 14th, 2016, 12:09 PM
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Daniel, what you are actually saying is that if in 2014, 9,967 people died in drunk driving crashes - one every 53 minutes - and 290,000 were injured in drunk driving crashes, then cars are killing too many people. We need to ban all private citizen cars now to prevent more deaths from happening. Cars are killing people!
Amen, LOL

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

------ Follow up post added June 14th, 2016 08:15 AM ------

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Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
Yea, and I can just walk into a Walmart and get that so easy.

I love this debate on how the gun protects us. What is the sole purpose of a gun? The gun is made to kill is it not? It's really not made to protect because if the gun was made to protect then it's doing a terrible job at it. If the all powerful gun was able to protect me from every bad person out there then we shouldn't have any murders right? I completely agree that gun abiding citizens who are sane and intelligent are not the problem. We all know this, but are we blind to the fact that a gun was so easy to get and be used, in the intent of how it was made in this case?

That's like saying, hey lets not put brakes cars and just ram it with another car to stop it...
Well cars were invented for getting people to somewhere. Travel right? Well why do people race them, off road etc... same argument for a gun. It was invented to kill, and yes that will protect you. Yes it is for protection, like having a bat. Wait that was invented to play a game called Baseball.

My sarcasm is to prove the point that you can spin it any way you want to.

Sarcasm aside , it's not a question of how they get their guns etc. Owning Guns are a right, unlike cars. So anyone should be allowed, but this guy in this case never should have been allowed. Look at all the evidence that has been coming out. This guy was a nut and a fanatic! His parents were allowed in, not Vetted I'm sure and look where we are now

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
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  #118  
Old June 14th, 2016, 12:54 PM
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Cars are killing people!


Think about how many more deaths there would be if there weren't regulations on safety devices in vehicles.
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  #119  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:00 PM
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Think about how many more deaths there would be if there weren't regulations on safety devices in vehicles.
There are regulations on guns. But the point most people miss is this. You can regulate and regulate it never would have stopped what happened. It's like in CA , limited to 10 round mags. Do you know how fast I can do a mag change? Well under a second. Yep that saved a life... so regulating and regulating is not the answer

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
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  #120  
Old June 14th, 2016, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ini88 View Post
Yea, and I can just walk into a Walmart and get that so easy.

I love this debate on how the gun protects us. What is the sole purpose of a gun? The gun is made to kill is it not? It's really not made to protect because if the gun was made to protect then it's doing a terrible job at it. If the all powerful gun was able to protect me from every bad person out there then we shouldn't have any murders right? I completely agree that gun abiding citizens who are sane and intelligent are not the problem. We all know this, but are we blind to the fact that a gun was so easy to get and be used, in the intent of how it was made in this case?

That's like saying, hey lets not put brakes cars and just ram it with another car to stop it...
Geez that last analogy, hmmm I don't know? Did you ever study logic? Most guns have safety's , (following your example) aren't those like brakes? Can't I run someone over with or without brakes? Walmart doesn't sell handguns, but Can't I go into Harbor Freight and get a 9 dollar machete'? I knew Seal that could kill you with his thumb or your fork...
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