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  #41  
Old June 13th, 2016, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
And he engaged with the shooter almost immediately but he was outside and the shooter retreated inside where he did his killing. Had there been armed patrons inside, IMHO, the loss of life would have been much less. 9 out of 10 bad guys prefer unarmed victims.

From the police chief's account the Orlando PD utilized their training and acted with skill and absolute heroism yet the shooter was still able to kill 49 people. From the on scene off duty officer to the SWAT team that did the breaching to end the shooters life they did all they could to neutralize the threat while unarmed civilians inside had zero means to defend themselves. Just saying. Yet the left's response is to further disarm law abiding citizens.

Also mass shootings/killings are NOT just and American phenomenon brought about by our gun culture.
I'm totally behind a federally recognized concealed weapons permit and the right to carry, and agree that IF there were sober people in the bar, that in this type of case, loss of life would have been less. That said, I don't support weapons carry in certain establishments, and in particular, bars and schools. Armed security however, all about that. But it's clear that armed security background checks suck monkey balls in this country.
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  #42  
Old June 13th, 2016, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
And he engaged with the shooter almost immediately but he was outside and the shooter retreated inside where he did his killing. Had there been armed patrons inside, IMHO, the loss of life would have been much less. 9 out of 10 bad guys prefer unarmed victims.

From the police chief's account the Orlando PD utilized their training and acted with skill and absolute heroism yet the shooter was still able to kill 49 people. From the on scene off duty officer to the SWAT team that did the breaching to end the shooters life they did all they could to neutralize the threat while unarmed civilians inside had zero means to defend themselves. Just saying. Yet the left's response is to further disarm law abiding citizens.

Also mass shootings/killings are NOT just and American phenomenon brought about by our gun culture.
No doubt or dispute with all of that. I do disagree however, in that bars and nightclubs are NOT places where you want armed citizens. We could go back and forth for ever debating statistics, "rights", and "facts" but in the end of it all I will still hold to my well thought out OPINION. The opinion being, an environment like a late-night bar or club, where patrons go to consume alcohol and / or drugs is NOT a good place to also have citizens armed.

What the Hell? why not serve alcohol at a gun range? At a range you will find some of your most diligent, aware, and well trained gun owners. On the dance floor, not so much....

The shooter at Pulse was a deranged, fucking sociopath. You can point out all of his motivations and associations but when you boil all that down to the mind of the individual, he was sick. One down... more to come.
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  #43  
Old June 13th, 2016, 10:19 AM
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As I stated before it is illegal in Florida to carry in a bar, nightclub or under the influence. In fact if you are in a restaurant that has a bar area (think Red Lobster) you are not supposed to enter that bar area whatsoever, even to use the restroom. Concealed carrying is a big responsibility not to be taken lightly.

With that said, had a patron been inside the club and ended the killing spree I would wager that they would not be charged with a crime. Quite the opposite.
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  #44  
Old June 13th, 2016, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
As I stated before it is illegal in Florida to carry in a bar, nightclub or under the influence. In fact if you are in a restaurant that has a bar area (think Red Lobster) you are not supposed to enter that bar area whatsoever, even to use the restroom. Concealed carrying is a big responsibility not to be taken lightly.

With that said, had a patron been inside the club and ended the killing spree I would wager that they would not be charged with a crime. Quite the opposite.
Well then let's just agree to agree...

Next time you get up to Orlando, swing into Orlando Brewing and let me serve you one of the finest beers around... over some lively chit-shat.
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  #45  
Old June 13th, 2016, 10:43 AM
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Hell yea! You know I love me some ice cold bud lite with a born on date within the last month preferably :-)
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  #46  
Old June 13th, 2016, 10:45 AM
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Hell yea! You know I love me some ice cold bud lite with a born on date within the last month preferably :-)
We use that shit for target practice.
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  #47  
Old June 13th, 2016, 10:48 AM
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What I can't figure out is how the armed bouncer ended up in a shoot out with the jihad knucklehead, who was able to retreat in to the bar? Bouncers are at the door.

What would make sense to me would be the shooter pulling a gun out as he approached the door and engaging the bouncer, and the bouncer retreating in to the bar because he was outgunned.

What may explain this unusual circumstance are two points. 1) the bouncer was an off duty cop. 2) Dunkin Donuts was next door.
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  #48  
Old June 13th, 2016, 11:08 AM
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I think some folks place way too much faith in folks with CCW's. We've had this discussion before and I don't want to rain on anyone's parade too much but look at what happened and who perpetrated it. Absent the terror ties he was also apparently trained in weapons and focused on an objective which he executed violently.

Is it possible that an armed citizen will rise to the moment and stop things, of course. Is it likely? Well experience tells me that is a facet of training and mindset. I don't know how many folks at your average LGBT right club would have a lot of both, but at the end of the day in crisis people fall back to their lowest level of training (they don't rise to their potential).
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  #49  
Old June 13th, 2016, 11:40 AM
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I think the left's response of ban assault weapons completely (I know what an assault weapon is and what they mean is ban rifles that look like M16s) is going to give Trump just what he needs to beat Hillary.
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  #50  
Old June 13th, 2016, 11:45 AM
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Question to ponder; if the shooter does not represent all Muslims then how can he represent all gun owners?
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  #51  
Old June 13th, 2016, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I think the left's response of ban assault weapons completely (I know what an assault weapon is and what they mean is ban rifles that look like M16s) is going to give Trump just what he needs to beat Hillary.

You could be on to something MG....but is this just the beginning of Lone Wolf Season?

If so, it's pretty much what Trumpo has been railing about...



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  #52  
Old June 13th, 2016, 11:49 AM
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Obama is blaming guns right now yet he can't speak the two word, "radical Islam". After 7 1/2 years he still isn't paying attention.
Matt you are 100% dead on with your post.
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  #53  
Old June 13th, 2016, 12:17 PM
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Ray, there are plenty of instances of an armed citizen stopping an active shooter however, the problem is that with out a high body count it won't make the 24 hour news cycle plus it doesn't fit the agenda of the main stream media.
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  #54  
Old June 13th, 2016, 12:30 PM
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Also I don't think the officer was a bouncer but security and was probably not working the door.
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  #55  
Old June 13th, 2016, 12:39 PM
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Appropriate:

------ Follow up post added June 13th, 2016 09:43 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
As I stated before it is illegal in Florida to carry in a bar, nightclub or under the influence.
Sheesh... I don't get it... with this law in place, how did this shooter even have the balls to go in there with a gun? I mean, that's gun control! Why didn't it work?!?!








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  #56  
Old June 13th, 2016, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by solarguy View Post
Question to ponder; if the shooter does not represent all Muslims then how can he represent all gun owners?
Fair point.

The head shot to the SWAT officer's brain bucket also indicates something. This guy knew what he was doing.

Concealed carry is a joke, unless it is taught along with some form of "battlemind" and some stressful scenarios. Those who carry need to understand how to shoot, when to shoot, what to shoot, and then do so until the threat is eliminated.

45 islamic terror murders since 9/11 in the US? You are off by an order of magnitude.

Read the Eagles of Death Metal interview Gavin McInnes did. The lead singer watched as people froze in incomprehension.

Just who the fuck are WE to call this other than what the shooter and ISIS called it? I have seen no imams nor scholars of islamic jurisprudence here on the forum. He allied with ISIS, and declared allegiance to the Caliph. It actually is as simple as that. Same as you are a liberal or conservative or Methodist or Defender fan. Because you self identify. The idea that we can now call his true motivations psychosis or mislead or homophobic is a fine example of just how blind to reality we have become.

Educate yourself. When Al-Azhar university, scholars of the highest authority in Islam, declares what jihad is....maybe we should believe them, and not our apologetic leaders. See "Catastrophic Failure" by Stephen Coughlin.

Last week I sat in a room full of ADMs, GENs, AMBs, a few DepSecGens, and had to wonder where have our warriors gone? The opposition certainly still has theirs.

Rant off.
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  #57  
Old June 13th, 2016, 01:33 PM
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The idea that we can now call his true motivations psychosis or mislead or homophobic is a fine example of just how blind to reality we have become.

Jihadists everywhere this morning are exasperated.
They just cant catch a break.
We still blame the guns or something else...




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  #58  
Old June 13th, 2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
Ray, there are plenty of instances of an armed citizen stopping an active shooter however, the problem is that with out a high body count it won't make the 24 hour news cycle plus it doesn't fit the agenda of the main stream media.
How many instances of semi trained individuals not responding are there too? Or just ending up dead?

My point was based off experience and training; other's results may vary. Believe what you will, but best to train if you expect to act.
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  #59  
Old June 13th, 2016, 01:38 PM
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Nope, sorry KGH it is not the fault of Islam, radical or otherwise, it is the fault of the Christian right.

ACLU lawyers blame 'Christian right,' GOP for Orlando terrorist attack | Washington Examiner
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  #60  
Old June 13th, 2016, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by KGH View Post
F

45 islamic terror murders since 9/11 in the US? You are off by an order of magnitude.

Last week I sat in a room full of ADMs, GENs, AMBs, a few DepSecGens, and had to wonder where have our warriors gone? The opposition certainly still has theirs.

Rant off.
Order of magnitude? Here's a good start point for the numbers discussion: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ource=Sailthru

WTF is a DepSecGen, some NATO term?
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