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  #241  
Old June 17th, 2016, 01:54 PM
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Let's get real. Concluding that the most gun violence occurs in the most heavily populated areas in America (which happen to lean strongly democrat) does not at all justify the conclusion that Democrats cause the majority of gun violence. What?

Also, nowhere was Steve making any sort of statement saying that people killing each other is ok. Fine, argue passionately about the issues, but taking people way outside of their word and throwing them under the short bus is not cool.

There are two major political parties in America. If anyone thinks that you can bin everyone in America into two labels, and then can make predictions about incredibly complex behavior based on political affiliation, then they're wrong. Or maybe they think they deserve a PhD in Sociology, or perhaps a Holberg Prize for their incredibly astute understanding of human behavior.

The only things that have made sense in this thread so far have been the bacon pictures, which were disgusting, and Russ drinking with his buddies.
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  #242  
Old June 17th, 2016, 02:06 PM
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  #243  
Old June 17th, 2016, 02:08 PM
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This thread is exactly the reason I'm not on Facebook...
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  #244  
Old June 17th, 2016, 02:15 PM
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  #245  
Old June 17th, 2016, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
Let's get real. Concluding that the most gun violence occurs in the most heavily populated areas in America (which happen to lean strongly democrat) does not at all justify the conclusion that Democrats cause the majority of gun violence. What?

Also, nowhere was Steve making any sort of statement saying that people killing each other is ok. Fine, argue passionately about the issues, but taking people way outside of their word and throwing them under the short bus is not cool.

There are two major political parties in America. If anyone thinks that you can bin everyone in America into two labels, and then can make predictions about incredibly complex behavior based on political affiliation, then they're wrong. Or maybe they think they deserve a PhD in Sociology, or perhaps a Holberg Prize for their incredibly astute understanding of human behavior.

The only things that have made sense in this thread so far have been the bacon pictures, which were disgusting, and Russ drinking with his buddies.
Thank you, that's exactly my point. For the record, I own a gun myself and I'm not claiming to be in favor of a ban on anything. In fact I work for a data company that works with the NRA and having looked at the data, I can tell you inserting my POV or arguing facts and statistics in the gun debate is a futile cause. I'm just pointing out that making the claim that population centers tend to have more gun violence and population centers tend to vote blue. therefore democratic and liberal minded people commit more gun crimes is a stretch.
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  #246  
Old June 17th, 2016, 02:34 PM
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This was inevitable:

http://editorialcartoonists.com/cart...160617_low.jpg
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  #247  
Old June 18th, 2016, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sms65965 View Post
There's more than one way or place to drown as well; you listed several data points related to firearms but not drowning, including near drowning (lakes, rivers, ocean, boating incidents, scuba diving, and other water sports).
Yep here you go (per CDC, 2014). People die in all sorts of ways.

Drowning and submersion following fall into natural water: 34
Drowning and submersion while in bath-tub: 258
Drowning and submersion while in natural water: 1469
Drowning and submersion while in swimming-pool: 528
Drowning and submersion, undetermined intent: 52

The interesting bit is when we back up and look at the larger category of assaults there are significantly more Other and Unspecified than specified types of assault resulting in death. Given our historic data collection mechanisms of mortality in the US, any conversation about deaths by gun v. pool v. motor vehicle or whatever are necessarily based upon incomplete data that can not support definitive answers either way.

Assault by other and unspecified firearm discharge: 9675
Assault by sharp object: 1679
Assault by unspecified means: 1524
Assault by handgun discharge: 680
Assault by hanging, strangulation and suffocation: 389
Assault by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge: 319
Assault by other specified means: 70
Assault by drugs, medicaments and biological substances: 21
Assault by crashing of motor vehicle: 10
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  #248  
Old June 18th, 2016, 12:13 PM
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The question we need to be asking is was the Orlando shooter wearing one of these?
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  #249  
Old June 18th, 2016, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
The question we need to be asking is was the Orlando shooter wearing one of these?
Wearing "the bulge" going into a gay bar mad is just asking for all kinds of trouble.
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  #250  
Old June 18th, 2016, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by grnrvrs View Post
Yep here you go (per CDC, 2014). People die in all sorts of ways.



Drowning and submersion following fall into natural water: 34

Drowning and submersion while in bath-tub: 258

Drowning and submersion while in natural water: 1469

Drowning and submersion while in swimming-pool: 528

Drowning and submersion, undetermined intent: 52



The interesting bit is when we back up and look at the larger category of assaults there are significantly more Other and Unspecified than specified types of assault resulting in death. Given our historic data collection mechanisms of mortality in the US, any conversation about deaths by gun v. pool v. motor vehicle or whatever are necessarily based upon incomplete data that can not support definitive answers either way.



Assault by other and unspecified firearm discharge: 9675

Assault by sharp object: 1679

Assault by unspecified means: 1524

Assault by handgun discharge: 680

Assault by hanging, strangulation and suffocation: 389

Assault by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge: 319

Assault by other specified means: 70

Assault by drugs, medicaments and biological substances: 21

Assault by crashing of motor vehicle: 10


Yeah, that was a conversation I just had with a friend. You can have a look at deaths, but to prevent deaths, you have to look at the more specific big bucket reason for death and figure out the covariates related to only that bucket; you can't compare death by drowning, death by car accident, etc., and say, "Well we regulate one this way therefore we should regulate the other in the same way." They aren't equivalent. Besides, it really just pisses people off and they never get to focusing on the actual single larger issue and then when they're directed to focus on it, they'll ignore other variables because they don't fit their biases. Both "sides" of any argument will do it. It's irritating. It's not that it's easier for me or you, who seems to like data, it's just that I do this for a living...go get, being in, analyze, and report data, then I use that analysis to design the next hunt for more data so I can have more power to detect.
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  #251  
Old June 18th, 2016, 02:18 PM
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  #252  
Old June 18th, 2016, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
This ad is proudly brought to you by your friends at Colt and Bushmaster.. Impressive piece of propaganda. I think most experts agree that a shotgun is the best choice for home defense.. I own a collection of guns including a california pre ban AR and id reach for the 12 gauge before the AR if someone came into the house....walls in your mobile home are pretty thin so you better not miss with a .223 round
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  #253  
Old June 18th, 2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
This ad is proudly brought to you by your friends at Colt and Bushmaster.. I think most experts agree that a shotgun is the best choice for home defense.. I own a collection of guns including a california pre ban AR and id reach for the 12 gauge before the AR if someone came into the house.
My wife would reach for the NODs and a hammer. Me, my 12g Benelli Supernova. My buddy held a meth'd out intruder at gunpoint with his AR. Different strokes for different folks. Yes it's an NRA video but he is spot on.
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  #254  
Old June 18th, 2016, 03:28 PM
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How is this conversation still going on? Can we pivot to abortion and solve that first?
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  #255  
Old June 18th, 2016, 04:13 PM
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Gun Store Owner: We Called FBI & Warned Them About Orlando Shooter » Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

The FBI knew him very well.

https://www.sott.net/article/320157-...plaining-to-do

Lets ask the FBI what the fuck went wrong. I am positive they knew him all along..
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  #256  
Old June 18th, 2016, 04:19 PM
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See post 228
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  #257  
Old June 18th, 2016, 04:56 PM
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I think most 'experts' are shifting their opinion on HD weapons. Lots of reasons why an AR is as good, or better, than a shotgun. I can think of 30 off the top of my head.
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  #258  
Old June 18th, 2016, 05:30 PM
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This thread has its own life. I'm convinced that nothing will change. If Sandy Hook didn't have an impact. Then 48 people getting shot in a gay club won't either. I understand both perspectives. Both sides are dug in. I think most Americans are some where in the middle. I know I am. I'm gonna ga back to why I like this forum so much. Defenders, at least we can all agree we like them!
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  #259  
Old June 18th, 2016, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray_G View Post
I think most 'experts' are shifting their opinion on HD weapons. Lots of reasons why an AR is as good, or better, than a shotgun. I can think of 30 off the top of my head.
Agreed.
Number one reason for me is ease of shooting.
It doesn't hurt my old shoulder.
My wife can shoot it. Little girls can shoot it.
AR=FTW

Every time I go shoot trap or skeet I come home all bruised and beat up.
That 12ga sounds like a bazooka honestly.
I think it gives me a little ptsd after a round of trap....



Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
This thread has its own life. I'm convinced that nothing will change. If Sandy Hook didn't have an impact. Then 48 people getting shot in a gay club won't either.
Those seem like two vastly different scenarios.

What would you change to prevent the next jihadist from killing 49 Americans, gay or straight?


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  #260  
Old June 18th, 2016, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix37 View Post
This ad is proudly brought to you by your friends at Colt and Bushmaster.. Impressive piece of propaganda. I think most experts agree that a shotgun is the best choice for home defense.. I own a collection of guns including a california pre ban AR and id reach for the 12 gauge before the AR if someone came into the house....walls in your mobile home are pretty thin so you better not miss with a .223 round
Experts do not agree on this at all, a 12 buckshot round will penetrate just as far if not farther than a 5.56 AR round. Same with handgun rounds 9mm/40cal they will penetrate further than a 5.56. Plenty of tests out there on the YouTube.

If you are going to bring a gun to a fight inside your home you had better know what that round is going to do when it leaves the barrel.




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