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  #181  
Old June 15th, 2016, 10:10 PM
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Plenty of daily mass killings in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Venezuela, Mexico and mass government executions in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
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  #182  
Old June 15th, 2016, 10:16 PM
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A New Study On Mass Shootings Has Some Stunning Results | ThinkProgress


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
Seriously??
The US doesnt even come close to the record kill.

November 2015 Paris= 130 killed
July 2011 Norway= 77 killed
Sep 2013 Kenya shopping mall= 67 killed


That's just a quick search.



.
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  #183  
Old June 15th, 2016, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
Seriously??
The US doesnt even come close to the record kill.

November 2015 Paris= 130 killed
July 2011 Norway= 77 killed
Sep 2013 Kenya shopping mall= 67 killed


That's just a quick search.



.
Well maybe next time we can get the record. 2 of the 3 above were planned and carried out by multiple shooters. Seriously that's your logic?

------ Follow up post added June 15th, 2016 10:29 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Plenty of daily mass killings in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Venezuela, Mexico and mass government executions in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
These are countries that we should compare ourselves too? I agree with you that mass killings are taking place in the above countries but I'd like to think we are more civilized.
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  #184  
Old June 15th, 2016, 10:47 PM
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So Chad, you think "we" Americans are more "civilized" than the people from THOSE countries? How utterly imperial of you.
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  #185  
Old June 15th, 2016, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
These are countries that we should compare ourselves too? I agree with you that mass killings are taking place in the above countries but I'd like to think we are more civilized.
Someone on the last page said we are the mass shooting capitol of the world. I beg to differ. Statistics are a funny thing. You can make them what you want. The deadliest shooting in the US actually took place on 12/29/1890 and was carried out by................. the US government. Thoughts on that?
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  #186  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
So Chad, you think "we" Americans are more "civilized" than the people from THOSE countries? How utterly imperial of you.
I do! No doubt we live in the best country in the world! I'm sure you'd agree with me. We can disagree and debate issues but we are still the best country in the world.
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  #187  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
Seriously??
The US doesnt even come close to the record kill.

November 2015 Paris= 130 killed
July 2011 Norway= 77 killed
Sep 2013 Kenya shopping mall= 67 killed


That's just a quick search.



.
It's because the vast majority don't give a flying fuck about the rest of the world.

I can see that the guy you responded to doesn't think those count because they had multiple shooters. Again people that focus on one man with a gun being the problem are missing the point.

To every person that thinks life in America is scary because of our gun laws do you want to be blown up at a street cafe, in a bus, or while on vacation at a beach resort? No? Then focus on the real problem and pony up a solution that isn't omg get rid of guns that resemble military weapons wah wah wah. A dude has attacked Americans doing what Americans do best, being free to be themselves and you can't even acknowledge that the dude who did it did so because of radicalization and pure hatred for Americans (pledging to ISIS makes it so). Instead you think you can solve the problem by getting rid of some types of guns? It would have still happened.
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  #188  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
Someone on the last page said we are the mass shooting capitol of the world. I beg to differ. Statistics are a funny thing. You can make them what you want. The deadliest shooting in the US actually took place on 12/29/1890 and was carried out by................. the US government. Thoughts on that?
That's another issue but I wouldn't debate on past atrocities. Are you Native American?
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  #189  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:22 PM
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What makes you think its not?
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  #190  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
That's another issue but I wouldn't debate on past atrocities. Are you Native American?
I'm not but why would that matter? Are we better than them too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
Well maybe next time we can get the record. 2 of the 3 above were planned and carried out by multiple shooters. Seriously that's your logic?
Looks like the US Cavalry holds that record and with mass shooters.
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  #191  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwilder View Post
What makes you think its not?
He isn't saying it is not. He is asking you what you personally think makes America the greatest country.
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  #192  
Old June 15th, 2016, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javelinadave View Post
I'm not but why would that matter? Are we better than them too? Looks like the US Cavalry holds that record and with mass shooters.
Don't forget about that little skirmish that ended on Aug 6, 1946 with no hand guns used. That bomb saved hundreds of thousands of American lives. Still the U.S. Government holds the record.

------ Follow up post added June 15th, 2016 11:41 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavemandiesel View Post
don't forget about that little skirmish that ended on aug 6, 1946 with no hand guns used. That bomb saved hundreds of thousands of american lives. Still the u.s. Government holds the record.
1945
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  #193  
Old June 16th, 2016, 12:25 AM
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[QUOTE=javelinadave;747571]I'm not but why would that matter? Are we better than them too?



No, Not sure why you'd assume that. I have Native American ancestry in my family. I'm from Florida originally and what happened during the Seminole Indian wars was pretty bad. I only asked as you seemed to know your history and thought maybe it was due to your heritage. I apologize if I offended you.

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  #194  
Old June 16th, 2016, 12:38 AM
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Chad,
No apology necessary. I'm a Polish, Ukrainian, Russian Jew and a student of history. In fact when I retire from my current job I hope to teach US war history at my alma mater. Disarming my people didn't work out so well for us either. I can give you 6,000,000 reasons to never ever turn in your guns and to never ever trust a government that asks you to do so.
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  #195  
Old June 16th, 2016, 01:45 AM
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10 pages on a car forum tells me it is a gun rights issue. Or the shooting is being used as a gun rights issue.

One of us gave up his rifles because it "was the right thing to do". By what yardstick?

By that logic, the shooter killed homosexuals/kuffar because it was the "right thing to do".

http://unconstrainedanalytics.org/wp...lin-010216.pdf

Read it. Explains the thinking behind the shooter, and how we see it. His laws, his belief system, his code of conduct.

Other historical "right things to do" according to the powers at the time:
Armenia
Native Americans
Russian Pograms
Anne Frank
Pol Pot
Che (3rd rate revolutionary who died like a bitch..lol)
Etc etc

And to the gent who proposed free university...you are a great example of today's belief system.
You are willing to enslave human beings. Let us simplistically walk that dog.
Who is going to pay for it?
How do you get them to pay?
What do you do if I, as a free man, disagree and refuse to pay? My ability to create capital is not related to your needs for my capital.
How far are you willing to go to take my capital?
Threats? Seizures? Imprisonment?
If you ponder it, it boils down to the use of armed coercion by those in power to enforce their collective will.
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  #196  
Old June 16th, 2016, 02:07 AM
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The 2nd Amendment is a human right.

It isn't about having a sensible hunting rifle so uncle Bob can make sure and feed the kids. It is about having the right to protect yourself from maniacs like the shooter on Saturday night, and from the government.

When the founders wrote the 2nd Amendment they were explicitly thinking about making sure the population was armed well enough to be able to take down their own government. They were thinking back to the event that triggered the start of the war for independence that they had just lived through -- when the Regulars marched out of Boston, they were coming to confiscate guns. And by a very, very small margin, the American Rebels managed to hold on to enough firepower for just long enough to outlast the British, winning their independence. The 2nd Amendment was a direct response to this reality.

We now look at the power of the government in a way that is backwards from how they saw it. The Marines and the Navy were to protect the country. The army was non-existent unless the 2nd Amendment armed militias were called to regular service. The militias were supposed to be the highest land-based military power in the country, not only for protection from invaders on the boarders, but for the express purpose of overthrowing the government if the need arises.

The 2nd Amendment is the most libertarian amendment of the first ten. And without it, we would have none of the rest in the first place.

"...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it [the government]"

It's what they believed from day one.

To argue against the 2nd Amendment is to argue against the very foundation of this country. It is a capitulation of your most basic rights into the hands of the government. The 2nd Amendment is logic, philosophy, and protection. An argument against it is borne only of emotion, or of a desire to take power from the people and place it into the hands of the ruling class.
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  #197  
Old June 16th, 2016, 03:02 AM
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Some food for thought:

-The declaration of independence is where the term unalienable rights is used and it refers to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
-the Bill of Rights could be considered a list of unalienable rights of course, but I don't think that holds since all of the rights have limitations imposed by laws of the country that in some way infringe, so how can they be unalienable if the gov't can legally infringe (and has done so throughout the tenure of our country).

Reading articles about the US's mass shooting issue is somewhat problematic because people writing them always have an angle, are not putting them in proper context, and usually end up using statistics to mislead. For example of the US rate for homicides is 4 out of every 100k people that is significantly higher than a relatively small, homogenous, European country where it is like 1.2/100k. The other side of that is that it really isn't. What I mean is, and this may come across as harsh to folks that really really get wound up about the sanctity of human life, is there are substantive difference between 1.2 and 4 people? Out of 100k? Annually? It seems like it when the article creates graphics that make Americans feel like tomorrow we could have a mass murder anywhere but the minute you delve into the methodology and start actually looking at the raw numbers and then ask yourself is 3 more people out of 100k, in a year, a lot then you can think more clearly about it. The left doesn't want that though as it waters down the narrative.

That's aside from the soft folks in the world who don't want to admit that humans are inherently violent at some level; many would prefer to ignore that and bask in the thin veneer of civility instead of acknowledging life as it is, or could be.

The right also paints with a broad brush; i.e. the comment by Dave about the AG arming 'half' the cartel...half? Really? That's a lot of weapons and FnF didn't hit that threshold unless I'm missing something. Now many of the weapons may have come from the US, but that's a different issue/question than what the AG was doing.

Likewise its convenient to point toward Obama's anti-gun agenda, but truthfully if he is anti-gun I'd hate to see what a pro-gun politician is like almost no real legislation or effects on firearms have been implemented in his administration, though sales have skyrocketed. One could argue further that restrictions are actually loosening (see AR pistol if you don't believe me).

The reality of this incident is that it is a flash in the pan and people will forget about it soon enough when a kid falls into a zoo again, or someone else famous dies, or whatever.

There certainly doesn't seem to be lines at the recruiting centers...nor is Congress going to declare war. Too easy to just blame it on the Executive Branch I suppose, even though the calls for taking the gloves off are amusing b/c if people had any concept of how things are going in the region the better question is what more do you want to do, and how much more of Section 60 are you willing to fill up to do it?

That's not as easy as idiotic soundbites though that have no substantive policy proscriptions behind them.

r-
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  #198  
Old June 16th, 2016, 07:58 AM
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Some more food for thought - for those of you who have never traveled, or are blissfully unaware. Switzerland until not so long ago, like 8 or so years, REQUIRED every household to have a bomb shelter AND guns. Think about it....required....how many mass shootings have they had in Switzerland?

The USA is the ONLY country in the world where it is written into the articles of formation to encourage gun ownership - and this is primarily used for arming citizens with any firearm that can legally be bought.

Many, Many, Many other countries have no such rules, in fact up until about 12 or so years ago the UK POLICE never carried firearms, on the beat...of course there were some at ports of entry, but not your local beat cop - in fact even today there are some that refuse.

You will always have murders, you will always have radical lunatics, you will always have gang related assaults....most every country in one way form does - because of things like religion, hatred, lunacy, sicko's ... you name it. JUST MAKE IT HARDER FOR THEM TO DO IT.

Not one CIVILIAN I know needs any type of assault weapon. Not one civilian I know can make a solid argument for why they need one.
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  #199  
Old June 16th, 2016, 08:15 AM
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11 pages in to this topic. It's time for a PDM (Public Deliciousness Message).

3 Feet Tall Bacon Star Wars AT-AT




Bacon Chewbacca




Bacon Beer Stein filled with cheese (hell yeah!)



Bacon slices in sizes consumers would prefer




And the piece de resistance: Bacon Kevin Bacon portrait



You may now return to your unresolvable debate....
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  #200  
Old June 16th, 2016, 08:38 AM
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You may now return to your unresolvable debate....
Thanks. Now my computer needs lipitor
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