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  #101  
Old December 13th, 2012, 08:24 AM
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The first shooter was wearing camouflage and a mask, same with the movie theater shooter in Colorado. For some reason, it seems most of them do that. Maybe they think they will get away?
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  #102  
Old December 13th, 2012, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrc.swb
The problem with the Media is sensationalism. They feed from all the crap and nonsense that surround us.

For every asshole walking among us, there are 10,000 great/decent human beings. That one will make the news in a heart beat.

Love this video. That person saved a few lives.

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...armed-robbers/
And for the two perps, they both "posted bail and were released." Would think there would be a legal way to keep them detained until trial and incarceration.
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  #103  
Old December 13th, 2012, 08:48 AM
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And for the two perps, they both "posted bail and were released." Would think there would be a legal way to keep them detained until trial and incarceration.
Doesn't surprise me at all. We have a strange legal system.
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  #104  
Old December 13th, 2012, 09:24 AM
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And for the two perps, they both "posted bail and were released." Would think there would be a legal way to keep them detained until trial and incarceration.
why have a trial if you know they are going to be incarcerated?
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  #105  
Old December 13th, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCN View Post
I trust myself with a weapon but I sure as hell don't trust anybody else...
This.

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Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Correct. I see an article posted about a shooting in a crowded mall where the shooter shot and killed multiple people, and them himself. I then see mostly condolences, then you saying . . .
Josh, thank you for the excellent, concise summary. Could you please do this with every thread?

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Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
Everyones example is anecdotal. Bottom line is, I refuse to risk my life for a liberal social experiment.
What are you even talking about? As far as I can tell, no one is saying people shouldn't have guns (if that's what you mean by a liberal social experiment).

Many interesting points have been brought up in this thread. The one I keep coming back to, after reading the Atlantic article Ray posted, is "Does having more guns result in a safer society?" This article suggests that there are so many guns in the U.S., that at this point, allowing more people to carry guns will decrease random shootings. The article appears well-researched and is thought provoking, but based on the data I've seen, I remain unconvinced.

I am a responsible gun owner and don't question anyone's right to have guns or carry a concealed weapon.

As many have pointed out, one of the underlying issues is mental illness. No easy answer there, except perhaps stricter gun regulations (though admittedly not a panacea).

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Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post
In my past life, have lived in places where your firearm is your safe-line, everyone close to you wants to exterminate you , would placed bombs under your car . .
Out of genuine curiosity, where are those places you've lived? Really just curious.

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I am a raving lunatic...
At least we can agree on that. Just kidding!
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  #106  
Old December 13th, 2012, 10:55 AM
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I get the whole personal rights issue but at some point people have to lose that right don't you think?
Yes, we have these things called laws, when you break one sufficient to put you in jail, you lose your right. It should not be before that. If I want to go wander around talking to myself or do weird stuff and crazy stuff all the time, that is my choice and right. Until I break a law, nothing should happen.
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  #107  
Old December 13th, 2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
Yes, we have these things called laws, when you break one sufficient to put you in jail, you lose your right. It should not be before that. If I want to go wander around talking to myself or do weird stuff and crazy stuff all the time, that is my choice and right. Until I break a law, nothing should happen.
You're oversimplifying a broad issue. Not everyone requires jail, which is what Campbell had said earlier. There are things that can be done before someone kills someone else, and sometimes all it takes is someone else paying enough attention, to be able to intervene. For example, if one of my best friends drives to the bar and we pound down 20 beers and 5 shots, something I can do before he potentially commits a crime and/or injures someone else is take his keys away for the night. There are ways to monitor, intervene, and offer help when someone is obviously troubled, without jeopardizing their liberties. There are also those who probably show no sign of distress before they go off the deep end and shoot up a mall.
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  #108  
Old December 13th, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tommyd View Post
This.



Josh, thank you for the excellent, concise summary. Could you please do this with every thread?



What are you even talking about? As far as I can tell, no one is saying people shouldn't have guns (if that's what you mean by a liberal social experiment).

Many interesting points have been brought up in this thread. The one I keep coming back to, after reading the Atlantic article Ray posted, is "Does having more guns result in a safer society?" This article suggests that there are so many guns in the U.S., that at this point, allowing more people to carry guns will decrease random shootings. The article appears well-researched and is thought provoking, but based on the data I've seen, I remain unconvinced.

I am a responsible gun owner and don't question anyone's right to have guns or carry a concealed weapon.

As many have pointed out, one of the underlying issues is mental illness. No easy answer there, except perhaps stricter gun regulations (though admittedly not a panacea).



Out of genuine curiosity, where are those places you've lived? Really just curious.


Answered via pm

At least we can agree on that. Just kidding!
Takes one to know one :-)
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  #109  
Old December 13th, 2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
You're oversimplifying a broad issue. Not everyone requires jail, which is what Campbell had said earlier. There are things that can be done before someone kills someone else, and sometimes all it takes is someone else paying enough attention, to be able to intervene. For example, if one of my best friends drives to the bar and we pound down 20 beers and 5 shots, something I can do before he potentially commits a crime and/or injures someone else is take his keys away for the night. There are ways to monitor, intervene, and offer help when someone is obviously troubled, without jeopardizing their liberties. There are also those who probably show no sign of distress before they go off the deep end and shoot up a mall.
Don't get me wrong, I think you should try to help people in trouble, but you should not and cannot take away any rights until they commit a crime. The abuses of the psych system are really bad. People get involuntarily committed for stupid shit.
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  #110  
Old December 13th, 2012, 12:36 PM
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For most of human history, mental illness was treated with isolation from the rest of society.

In the United States, deinstitutionalization was a movement of the 1960's. This, with the rise of modern psychiatry and pharmacology, has radically changed the way that mental illness is dealt with.

One byproduct of this is that those with various degrees of mental illness comingle with those without. I saw this in the Chicago suburbs - even wealthy areas of Cook County like Evanston have a noticeable population of the mentally ill walking around due to the halfway house system. As Ron states, the concept is that the modern approach has a lower social burden (cost) and is significantly more humane.

However, as others have stated, homocide by mentally ill individuals against the rest of society is easier to perpetrate by virtue of this system.

There are other issues. Self-diagnosis of mental illness is virtually non-existent. There are associative stigmas which may prevent professionals, family and friends from disclosure. American society in urban centers is highly isolated with unusually weakly structured formal relationships due to the norm of individualism. Therefore, it's possible for the mentally ill to remain unidentified until a crime due to mental illness occurs.

In my opinion, there is no simple answer such as "Lock up all the crazies" or "Take away all the guns" although those sentiments are understandable.
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  #111  
Old December 13th, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Well said there. This event also proves that a crazy can gain access to a gun if they have the opportunity.
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  #112  
Old December 13th, 2012, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeriAnn View Post
i think it could present an interesting scenario if everyone were packing a concealed gun and was eager to stop a rouge bent upon venting his anger on others then himself.

He opens up in a crowed mall, people near him open up, people near them open up. Maybe a couple people know who fired the first shot the others just know who was near them that fired a weapon and targets the nearest shooter.

And its one, two, three who are we shooting at
Don't know and I don't give a damn
Next stop is the city morgue

If the first shooter doesn't wear a target, there are liable to be bystanders shooting at one another thinking they are protecting everyone else. I could see a mall full of people shooting at one another. All doing right by protecting Innocent bystanders who are in the process of becoming collateral damage.

The cops would be safer just staying out of it and letting God sort out well meaning shooters.

I guess it all depends on the armed bystander being smart enough to know when to open up and when to hunker down and let trained law enforcement officers do the job. But excitement, confusion and adrenalin are the jokers in the pack that can get even more people killed and wounded and yourself in the jail for doing something you would never have done had not the moment taken you.
Groups of vigilante bystanders ? Your persective sounds like you just watched a Charles Bronson movie.
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  #113  
Old December 13th, 2012, 07:14 PM
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I'm with Teri Ann :D
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  #114  
Old December 13th, 2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij View Post
Yes, we have these things called laws, when you break one sufficient to put you in jail, you lose your right. It should not be before that. If I want to go wander around talking to myself or do weird stuff and crazy stuff all the time, that is my choice and right. Until I break a law, nothing should happen.
I know we have laws. Aren't they broken at some point when you threaten to kill people? Isn't that what I'm talking about?
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  #115  
Old December 14th, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Yet another one... WTF is going on...

http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-s...opstories.html
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  #116  
Old December 14th, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Stress of the Holiday season?

Cuse me while I go to the mall on the internet. Much safer. I hope.
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  #117  
Old December 14th, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Stress of the Holiday season?

Cuse me while I go to the mall on the internet. Much safer. I hope.
Perhaps folks thing the world is going to end next week on 12/21??

Another Y2K debacle BS???
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  #118  
Old December 14th, 2012, 12:14 PM
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just today

Yet we have another tragedy this morning. Where are these people and where to they come from? I would not want to be a vigalante and guns do scare the hell out of me but...what do you do to equal the playing field, walk around equiped with a handgun in case there is a wacko. I think about doing just that even more so now that I am a parent.

I agree with Jeff and I am also wondering the rate of these type of events in Isreal or other countries with mandatory military service. Because of the gun education that the recruits received, does that deminish the instances of wackos going around shooting people?

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I think the answer is honest gun education/safety. The anti gun propaganda only incites fear. If everyone was comfortable with guns and carried one, alot of these wacko's would think twice.

-Jeff
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  #119  
Old December 14th, 2012, 01:02 PM
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In addition to being a mental stability issue, I think the number of people who are morally bankrupt is increasing as well.

-Jeff
holly crap ... 27 dead ... 18 kids ... wtf is wrong with this people ..
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