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  #81  
Old December 12th, 2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I hear you ... not sure we can compare armed robbery where random killing isn't the objective. But it's a valid argument that guns can help stop certain crimes. I wonder conversely how many armed robbers have killed civilians attempting to stop a robbery where without a weapon they would have been ignored. Pulling a gun is going to attract attention to yourself that otherwise may not have occurred.

In the Oregon etc scenarios we are considering a random shooting incident where the motive is random killing ... and the perp enters a public place.

Has a civilian ever stopped one of these? The basis for concealed carry is that you'd be able to stop it. But I'm looking for examples where this has occurred.
I don't think there are great examples of an armed civilian stopping it; but then again it's difficult to point out if there were armed civilians present when they were happening that failed to act. Moreover I would contend the basis for CC has nothing to do with a civilian being able to stop a random act of violence through offensive action-rather the reason for a CCW permit is to defend oneself and those that are with them from possible harm.

The whole notion that civilians with CC permits in a situation like this would form into a cohesive unit..stack up and start conducting CQB against a threat is not the point of a CC in the first place and is a mitigating argument against letting people exercise their right to bear arms (in my opinion). The article from the Atlantic I posted points out that most CC holders are more law abiding than the avg and also-by extrapolation-tend to be more reticent about the application of lethal force.

To put it another way, were I faced with a situation where I'm in a civilian capacity my reaction is going to be very different than my reaction while wearing desert cammies-it's the nature of the responsibility when you are carrying a weapon. CC should predominantly be a defensive posture, not offensive were the risk of errant rounds rises drastically when the untrained start moving forward and drawing fire.

It's just a shame there wasn't someone there with the capability to put two in the chest and one in the head as the little fucker was trying to figure out tap, rack, bang on the stolen AR.
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  #82  
Old December 12th, 2012, 08:48 PM
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Doug: Whats with the big ass font?
sorry actually reduced it considerably- some of the quotes were quite large. I just swept the page and chose 3
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  #83  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:04 PM
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Really ? Statistics can be manipulated to attempt to make a point as you have illustrated. In order for these metrics to be relevant you need to know/illustrate what they were before handguns were outlawed in the UK October 16th 1996 or do a little research. REALITY IS the trend went the opposite direction and refutes the point you are attempting to make. Britains experience has been that their efforts took all the legal guns out of law abiding citizens hands- problem is thats not the segment of society that presented the problem.

"The United Kingdom historically had one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world even before gun control legislation became stricter from the late twentieth century."

" The British government all but outlawed private firearms ownership in Britain. Because one vicious killer used a firearm to commit multiple murders in 1996, victim-disarming politicians rushed to ban nearly all private gun ownership and possession nationwide.
The result? According to the January 16, 2000 edition of the Sunday Times of London, "up to 3 million illegal guns are in circulation in Britain, leading to a rise in drive-by shootings and gangland-style executions. " The Sunday Times reported: "Criminals have maintained a steady flow of smuggled guns from eastern Europe, exhibition weapons reactivated in illegal "factories" run by underworld dealers, and guns stolen from private collections." "There is a move from the pistol and the shotgun to automatic weapons," British Detective Superintendent Keith Hudson told the Sunday Times.British criminals have all the guns they want. The Sunday Times thus reported: "Detectives say modern weapons are fast becoming fashion accessories among young drug dealers protecting themselves and their territory." Are British people safer? Crime rates are soaring in Britain. The British Home Office, according to the Sunday Times, released figures showing that "overall, armed crime rose 10% in 1998" -- the year after national handgun prohibition began.

This is your Utopia ?

.

BTW the psycho in Oregon stole the weapon the day before. So how would any type of background check/legislation preventing him from owning etc have made any difference ? It wouldn't. As has been said above, the only way to have stopped him was if someone in the line of fire had been armed.

If someone shoots @ me I'm shooting back. Rant over.
Yeah but British criminals have the decency to target each other. We are good like that.
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  #84  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Yeah but British criminals have the decency to target each other. We are good like that.

I think the real issue here is why the hell we have so much mental illness in this country and why suicidal types feel the need to take others with them regardless of what the mechanism of choice is.
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  #85  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post

HA! Jason, you put the 'ish' in British.

-Jeff
I thought it was about time to get this back on track ... Clearly there is no answer here. Complex problem roots in the founding of a nation and the right of an individual to protect themselves.

You'll all be pleased to know I'll stick to my water guns ... But I would hope to have the wherewithal and courage to step between a gun firing lunatic and my family or friends. I value the life of those close to me above my own.
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  #86  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post

I think the real issue here is why the hell we have so much mental illness in this country and why suicidal types feel the need to take others with them regardless of what the mechanism of choice is.
Their 15mins of fame is elusive for some folks on the edge of sanity... Violence is an easy way to get attention for those who lack the intelligence or skill to get it other ways.
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  #87  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post

I think the real issue here is why the hell we have so much mental illness in this country and why suicidal types feel the need to take others with them regardless of what the mechanism of choice is.
Couldn't be anything to do with your healthcare system could it?
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  #88  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Couldn't be anything to do with your healthcare system could it?
not pc but it appears we need some chlorine in the shallow end of the gene pool
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  #89  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
But I would hope to have the wherewithal and courage to step between a gun firing lunatic and my family or friends. I value the life of those close to me above my own.
Most men would do the same. I have seen the wrong end of a gun to many times (work and personal). I guarantee you Jason if you had gun in your hand you would defend yourself even though you don't like them.
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  #90  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tjfslaughter View Post

Most men would do the same. I have seen the wrong end of a gun to many times (work and personal). I guarantee you Jason if you had gun in your hand you would defend yourself even though you don't like them.
I don't doubt that for an instance.
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  #91  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
I thought it was about time to get this back on track ... Clearly there is no answer here. Complex problem roots in the founding of a nation and the right of an individual to protect themselves.

You'll all be pleased to know I'll stick to my water guns ... But I would hope to have the wherewithal and courage to step between a gun firing lunatic and my family or friends. I value the life of those close to me above my own.
Rest assure you will.

BTW, you do not need a firearm to stop someone with one, there are disciplines that will teach you how to do just that.

So in other words, enjoy the Water Guns and search for other means to achieve the same objective should you be faced with the need to defend your loved ones.
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  #92  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Rugbier View Post

Rest assure you will.

BTW, you do not need a firearm to stop someone with one, there are disciplines that will teach you how to do just that.

So in other words, enjoy the Water Guns and search for other means to achieve the same objective should you be faced with the need to defend your loved ones.
Yeah ... My current plan is a little terminal ... At least for me ...
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  #93  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:57 PM
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Jason is prepared I think: he has a cat and a kitten, the slowest elevator in NYC, and a steep-ass flight of stairs one would have to climb to reach his apt.
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  #94  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Crazy people and ex-criminals should be allowed to have guns. If they are that dangerous, they need to still be in jail or be involuntarily committed (which is a bunch of bullshit to begin with -- crazy people should only be locked up when THEY ask to be or when they commit a crime worthy of incarceration).

This isn't minority report, you can't see the future, and for every nutcase that goes on a shooting spree, there are a million nutcases who don't.
Some good points Ron...but do you really think someone who is truly nuts knows when to ask to be locked up or really know they need help. I don't know the solution, don't think there is one. I get the whole personal rights issue but at some point people have to lose that right don't you think?

Another thing is the reality is those that are dangerous are seldom left in jail, they are released everyday to mostly repeat. I get your points though about not being minority report, can't lock everyone up who acts crazy but man when clear threats have been made seems like something has to be done..ex arrorra
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  #95  
Old December 13th, 2012, 12:27 AM
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  #96  
Old December 13th, 2012, 03:19 AM
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^ I wish the evening news reported news like this, I actually might watch it. Good post.
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  #97  
Old December 13th, 2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
This is funny shit.

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Originally Posted by Campbell View Post
^ I wish the evening news reported news like this, I actually might watch it. Good post.
You and me both...

But I doubt an official will say something like this:

"He was a complete asshole and a crazy prick, and he shot random, innocent strangers for no reason at all, because he was terrible"

Too bad... I bet this is exactly what the guy was thinking. LOL
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  #98  
Old December 13th, 2012, 08:07 AM
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Lots of stories and reading here:

http://gunssavelives.net/

------ Follow up post added December 13th, 2012 08:12 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Can anyone cite an instance where someone attempting a random killing was stopped by a member of the public ... I can only recall these being stopped by suicide or intervention by police.

Article - Auditing Shooting Rampage Statistics:

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31...ge-statistics/
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  #99  
Old December 13th, 2012, 08:14 AM
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The problem with the Media is sensationalism. They feed from all the crap and nonsense that surround us.

For every asshole walking among us, there are 10,000 great/decent human beings. That one will make the news in a heart beat.

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Originally Posted by pmd View Post
Lots of stories and reading here:

http://gunssavelives.net/
Love this video. That person saved a few lives.

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...armed-robbers/
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  #100  
Old December 13th, 2012, 08:19 AM
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i think it could present an interesting scenario if everyone were packing a concealed gun and was eager to stop a rouge bent upon venting his anger on others then himself.

He opens up in a crowed mall, people near him open up, people near them open up. Maybe a couple people know who fired the first shot the others just know who was near them that fired a weapon and targets the nearest shooter.

And its one, two, three who are we shooting at
Don't know and I don't give a damn
Next stop is the city morgue

If the first shooter doesn't wear a target, there are liable to be bystanders shooting at one another thinking they are protecting everyone else. I could see a mall full of people shooting at one another. All doing right by protecting Innocent bystanders who are in the process of becoming collateral damage.

The cops would be safer just staying out of it and letting God sort out well meaning shooters.

I guess it all depends on the armed bystander being smart enough to know when to open up and when to hunker down and let trained law enforcement officers do the job. But excitement, confusion and adrenalin are the jokers in the pack that can get even more people killed and wounded and yourself in the jail for doing something you would never have done had not the moment taken you.
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