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  #61  
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:26 PM
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I know when I see an anti-gun slant. IMO, you either love em or hate them. This so so / im torn can't make up my mind mentality is how anti-gun legislation gets votes. Bottom line is, I believe it is true, if someone else at that mall had a concealed weapon, they could of taken out the gunman a lot quicker than waiting for a police response team thus saving many lives in the process. The other option is grim, let the gunman run out of ammo and let the police clean up the bodies. The first few seconds/minutes of a shooting is a crucial time where lives could be saved or lost.
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  #62  
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:32 PM
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Crazy people and ex-criminals should be allowed to have guns. If they are that dangerous, they need to still be in jail or be involuntarily committed (which is a bunch of bullshit to begin with -- crazy people should only be locked up when THEY ask to be or when they commit a crime worthy of incarceration).

This isn't minority report, you can't see the future, and for every nutcase that goes on a shooting spree, there are a million nutcases who don't.
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  #63  
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:45 PM
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I havent read through everything, but I think I heard last night that there were 11 gun related homicides in Chicago in one night last week... What are Chicagos gun laws again? I grew up in Kennesaw, Ga, a growing city now...

Gun law

In 1982 the city passed an ordinance [Sec 34-21][18]

(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.
(b)Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.
Gun rights activist David Kopel has claimed that there is evidence that this gun law has reduced the incident rate of home burglaries citing that in the first year, home burglaries dropped from 65 before the ordinance, down to 26 in 1983, and to 11 in 1984.[19] Another report observed a noticeable reduction in burglary from 1981, the year before the ordinance was passed, to 1999. Kennesaw's crime rates have continued to decline and are well below the national average, making citizens feel safer and more secure.[20] Th Later research claims that there is no evidence that [the law] reduced the rate of home burglaries [in Kennesaw],[21][22] even though the overall crime rate had decreased by more than 50% between 1982 and 2005.[23]

The city's website[24] claims the city has the lowest crime rate in the county.
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  #64  
Old December 12th, 2012, 04:24 PM
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You're expanding the point a little further beyond what I had stated - but I'll answer it. A "trained, legal, concealed-weapon-carrying individual", who thinks his life, or the lives of his family members or fellow man are in immediate danger (such as a shooter in a mall) will yes - likely pull out a gun and shoot at the criminal - not all individuals but at least some. What we know, is that humans are not perfect, and what everyone who has had any type of voilence around them knows, is that the reaction to stop it is both enough to stop it in the immediate moment, as well as enough to ensure that it does not begin again in the ensuing moments. So while one to two well placed shots may easily take down this criminal, we've seen time and time again that even "highly trained" police officers have demonstrated that they'll empty an entire magazine - and when there are multiple police officers, more than one will empty their entire magazine on the individual, as there is panic and confusion in the immediate moment.

What I was saying is that if you have "less highly trained" individuals (citizens) who are out to "go down trying" as Derek stated earlier, how can you not be convinced that in that moment, that ONLY a single "legal, concealed-weapon-carrying individual" will ONLY place one to two well placed shots, will absolutely not miss his target, and that other people who will also believe their lives are in danger and carrying a gun, will not mistake Derek or Doug as the criminal, when we've seen time and time again that even police officers make these mistakes time and time again?


I'm an ex military Iraq veteran that's shoots 300rnds a week with just my pistol. In addition i also teach CC classes, CQC classes, and some other things. I think ive eraned to right to CC. When it comes to LEO's arriving one scene you are right, it's absolutely critical you holster your weapon and let the professionals do there work. No one wants a blue on green incident. How ever until they arrive you are on your own.
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  #65  
Old December 12th, 2012, 04:46 PM
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You have certainly earned a right to CC - the issue I was speaking to is if there is a shooter in a mall and all of a sudden there is you and 5-10 citizens who are carrying who have (or believe they have) the same experience you have, and are all "on your own" in your own words. None of you have ever met or TRAINED TOGETHER, and I was saying to Scott that I find it hard to believe that in a crowded mall, that everyones shots would hit their intended target, that there wouldn't be collateral damage, or that there wouldn't be panic and confusion in the immediate moment, which would result in people other than the criminal being shot, and not at the criminal's hands.
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  #66  
Old December 12th, 2012, 04:52 PM
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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
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  #67  
Old December 12th, 2012, 04:56 PM
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  #68  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
You have certainly earned a right to CC - the issue I was speaking to is if there is a shooter in a mall and all of a sudden there is you and 5-10 citizens who are carrying who have (or believe they have) the same experience you have, and are all "on your own" in your own words. None of you have ever met or TRAINED TOGETHER, and I was saying to Scott that I find it hard to believe that in a crowded mall, that everyones shots would hit their intended target, that there wouldn't be collateral damage, or that there wouldn't be panic and confusion in the immediate moment, which would result in people other than the criminal being shot, and not at the criminal's hands.
Please let me know where this scenario has ever happened (multiple CC guys when needed).
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  #69  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
You have certainly earned a right to CC - the issue I was speaking to is if there are 5-10 people who have (or believe they have) the same experience you have - none of you have ever met or TRAINED TOGETHER, and are all "on your own" in your own words. I find it hard to believe that in a crowded mall, that everyones shots would hit their intended target, that there wouldn't be collateral damage, or that there wouldn't be panic and confusion in the immediate moment, which would result in people other than the criminal being shot, and not at the criminal's hands.

Can anyone cite an instance where someone attempting a random killing was stopped by a member of the public ... I can only recall these being stopped by suicide or intervention by police.
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  #70  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:09 PM
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Can anyone cite an instance where someone attempting a random killing was stopped by a member of the public ... I can only recall these being stopped by suicide or intervention by police.
Plenty of armed robberies where stopped.
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  #71  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
You have certainly earned a right to CC - the issue I was speaking to is if there is a shooter in a mall and all of a sudden there is you and 5-10 citizens who are carrying who have (or believe they have) the same experience you have, and are all "on your own" in your own words. None of you have ever met or TRAINED TOGETHER, and I was saying to Scott that I find it hard to believe that in a crowded mall, that everyones shots would hit their intended target, that there wouldn't be collateral damage, or that there wouldn't be panic and confusion in the immediate moment, which would result in people other than the criminal being shot, and not at the criminal's hands.

Like every civillian in the mall is going to be conceal carrying. I'd rather have that scenario than the shooter's scenario. Least of 2 evils.
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  #72  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:23 PM
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Please let me know where this scenario has ever happened (multiple CC guys when needed).


I have no idea if it's happened with multiple CC guys, but there are plenty of instances where this has happened with even trained "cohesive" LEOs (law enforcement officers), and it is not a stretch to carry it over to if there ARE suddently multiple CC guys who have NEVER trained together, all working "on their own". It was in response to this string after first Jeff said "If everyone was comfortable with guns and carried one" and Scott said that after the shooter started shooting in this crowded mall, that somehow no citizens would be harmed - my point is, that IF "everyone" (meaning many) people are carrying, and acting "on their own" as Derek said, that there would be a high likelyhood that innocents would be hit.

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I think the answer is honest gun education/safety. The anti gun propaganda only incites fear. If everyone was comfortable with guns and carried one, alot of these wacko's would think twice.


Sounds nice at a glance but this wacko went out to kill people and then himself, why would the prospect of getting killed first by an armed bystander made any difference? If you are prepared to kill yourself you are prepared to be killed by someone else.
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The difference would be that innocent people would be saved... Once he started shooting, an armed citizen could put him down and stop the attack.
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  #73  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:23 PM
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Plenty of armed robberies where stopped.
I hear you ... not sure we can compare armed robbery where random killing isn't the objective. But it's a valid argument that guns can help stop certain crimes. I wonder conversely how many armed robbers have killed civilians attempting to stop a robbery where without a weapon they would have been ignored. Pulling a gun is going to attract attention to yourself that otherwise may not have occurred.


In the Oregon etc scenarios we are considering a random shooting incident where the motive is random killing ... and the perp enters a public place.

Has a civilian ever stopped one of these? The basis for concealed carry is that you'd be able to stop it. But I'm looking for examples where this has occurred.
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  #74  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:32 PM
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It does happen. ** was responding to an earlier post** sorry!

About 10 years ago I went on a call where a home owner opened up on criminal in the midst of a break-in... barely missed and scared him away. Problem is, the neighbor's young kid took a round while sleeping in his crib...

I trust myself with a weapon but I sure as hell don't trust anybody else...
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  #75  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:47 PM
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Everyones example is anecdotal. Bottom line is, I refuse to risk my life for a liberal social experiment.
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  #76  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
You have certainly earned a right to CC - the issue I was speaking to is if there is a shooter in a mall and all of a sudden there is you and 5-10 citizens who are carrying who have (or believe they have) the same experience you have, and are all "on your own" in your own words. None of you have ever met or TRAINED TOGETHER, and I was saying to Scott that I find it hard to believe that in a crowded mall, that everyones shots would hit their intended target, that there wouldn't be collateral damage, or that there wouldn't be panic and confusion in the immediate moment, which would result in people other than the criminal being shot, and not at the criminal's hands.
While I will always be thankful for Derek's service, he has not earned the right to carry any more or less than any other Citizen.
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  #77  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:09 PM
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...,1951227.story
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  #78  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:09 PM
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While I will always be thankful for Derek's service, he has not earned the right to carry any more or less than any other Citizen.
absolutely agree - he earned it when he was born (if he was born here), or otherwise became a citizen.
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  #79  
Old December 12th, 2012, 08:29 PM
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Don't buy the left sentiment?

Consider the statistics for United Kingdon v US in 2011

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996
Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775
Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britainís population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)

I reckon UK is far more utopian than the US based on these statistics.

Really ? Statistics can be manipulated to attempt to make a point as you have illustrated. In order for these metrics to be relevant you need to know/illustrate what they were before handguns were outlawed in the UK October 16th 1996 or do a little research. REALITY IS the trend went the opposite direction and refutes the point you are attempting to make. Britains experience has been that their efforts took all the legal guns out of law abiding citizens hands- problem is thats not the segment of society that presented the problem.

"The United Kingdom historically had one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world even before gun control legislation became stricter from the late twentieth century."



" The British government all but outlawed private firearms ownership in Britain. Because one vicious killer used a firearm to commit multiple murders in 1996, victim-disarming politicians rushed to ban nearly all private gun ownership and possession nationwide.
The result? According to the January 16, 2000 edition of the Sunday Times of London, "up to 3 million illegal guns are in circulation in Britain, leading to a rise in drive-by shootings and gangland-style executions. " The Sunday Times reported: "Criminals have maintained a steady flow of smuggled guns from eastern Europe, exhibition weapons reactivated in illegal "factories" run by underworld dealers, and guns stolen from private collections." "There is a move from the pistol and the shotgun to automatic weapons," British Detective Superintendent Keith Hudson told the Sunday Times.British criminals have all the guns they want. The Sunday Times thus reported: "Detectives say modern weapons are fast becoming fashion accessories among young drug dealers protecting themselves and their territory." Are British people safer? Crime rates are soaring in Britain. The British Home Office, according to the Sunday Times, released figures showing that "overall, armed crime rose 10% in 1998" -- the year after national handgun prohibition began.

This is your Utopia ?

.

BTW the psycho in Oregon stole the weapon the day before. So how would any type of background check/legislation preventing him from owning etc have made any difference ? It wouldn't. As has been said above, the only way to have stopped him was if someone in the line of fire had been armed.

If someone shoots @ me I'm shooting back. Rant over.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 08:32 PM
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