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  #41  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woldd90 View Post
Really? Why would a trained, legal, concealed weapon, carrying citizen whip out a gun, and act like a gang-banger and shoot everyone in the direction of the assailant? They wouldn't.
You're expanding the point a little further beyond what I had stated - but I'll answer it. A "trained, legal, concealed-weapon-carrying individual", who thinks his life, or the lives of his family members or fellow man are in immediate danger (such as a shooter in a mall) will yes - likely pull out a gun and shoot at the criminal - not all individuals but at least some. What we know, is that humans are not perfect, and what everyone who has had any type of voilence around them knows, is that the reaction to stop it is both enough to stop it in the immediate moment, as well as enough to ensure that it does not begin again in the ensuing moments. So while one to two well placed shots may easily take down this criminal, we've seen time and time again that even "highly trained" police officers have demonstrated that they'll empty an entire magazine - and when there are multiple police officers, more than one will empty their entire magazine on the individual, as there is panic and confusion in the immediate moment.

What I was saying is that if you have "less highly trained" individuals (citizens) who are out to "go down trying" as Derek stated earlier, how can you not be convinced that in that moment, that ONLY a single "legal, concealed-weapon-carrying individual" will ONLY place one to two well placed shots, will absolutely not miss his target, and that other people who will also believe their lives are in danger and carrying a gun, will not mistake Derek or Doug as the criminal, when we've seen time and time again that even police officers make these mistakes time and time again?
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  #42  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post
I don't buy the left sentiment that gun control is a route to a Xanadu/ a utopian society. Looking @ Austrailia and Great Britain's experiences with outlawing short guns says this just isn't the case.
Don't buy the left sentiment?

Consider the statistics for United Kingdon v US in 2011

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996
Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775
Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britainís population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)

I reckon UK is far more utopian than the US based on these statistics.
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  #43  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Larson View Post
In the end everyone has a valid point and it is a slippery slope like Jeff pointed out. To Toms point...sooner or later there would be less shootings...its a Darwin thing! Most law enforcement follow a rule similar to 11-11-3...11' or less, 11 seconds or less, 3 shots or less. Regular citizens will most likley take cover...people scatter it the general effect in a panic situation. The whole thing is a mixed bag with no easy answer.
Saying everyone's point is valid is a nice way to try and keep the peace around here, but there would absolutely not be fewer shootings if everyone carried a handgun. Statistics don't support that, contrary to Doug's claims about the U.K. and Australia. Put a gun in the hand of every "regular" citizen, and everyone walks around paranoid, ready to draw. Not a society I want to live in. It's not a Darwin thing.
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  #44  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:31 PM
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Chris - Thank you for posting the data with references.

I would be interested in seeing the data and references behind the referenced CC Joe public citizen saving the day as the few cited examples (from the current news blogs on this topic), the hero is infact an ex cop, current marine, etc. I am sure there are many examples out there. Just would be interested in seeing the data.
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  #45  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Don't buy the left sentiment?

Consider the statistics for United Kingdon v US in 2011

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996
Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775
Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)

I reckon UK is far more utopian than the US based on these statistics.
Yep. Statistics don't lie. Same goes for Australia. More data about gun ownership and firearm murders by country here, from the United Nations office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC): http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...hip-world-list

US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world, but we do not have the highest firearm murder rate (we're 28th).

"Every man is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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  #46  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:37 PM
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I am carressing my newly biult tacticool AR-15 as I read the anti-gun sentiment here. Sounds like some of us here think they will live forever and civil liberties such as gun ownership are standing in the way between them and immortality.
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  #47  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmountainrover View Post
I CC my USP 9mm with TLR4 and 3 mags every wear with me. My wife also has her HK USP 9mm with TLR4 and 3mag in her purse every wear she goes......god help some one if I have to get out the trunk gun and vest.

------ Follow up post added December 12th, 2012 10:59 AM ------

130Tdi I agree 100%. I would rather go down trying then just go down. Had e ought getting shot at with out shooting back in Iraq for a life time.
This reminds me of an email I got...

The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. "Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?" He promptly replied, "No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my shotgun."
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  #48  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyd View Post

Based on #2, YOU sound 100% crazy.
Funny coming from a Texan (that lives in Florida).
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  #49  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Interesting hypothesis:

http://www.freakonomics.com/2005/05/...d-you-believe/

http://youtu.be/zk6gOeggViw
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  #50  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:48 PM
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I heard this quote from an ex-police when I was 12.

Police officers are not here to protect you... they are here to collect evidence.
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  #51  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
anti-gun sentiment here.

Which thread are you reading?
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  #52  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
Don't buy the left sentiment?

Consider the statistics for United Kingdon v US in 2011

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996
Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775
Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britainís population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)
Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)

I reckon UK is far more utopian than the US based on these statistics.
Ever been there?

I lived in the UK for 30 years, traveled all over Western Europe for 3 and have been here in the US for 10. The UK is typically a far more violent place than the US in my experience (I have travelled extensively over here and there). You are much more likely to get knifed, glassed, beaten up, etc. in the UK than over here. Not so likely to die as you have shown but crippled or worse. Same applies to much of Western Europe for similar reasons. Your options to defend yourself, your loved ones and your property are essentially nil. There are many, many cases of people hurting attackers, burglars, etc. over there and being stiffly prosecuted for it.

One of the things I value highly here in the US is my RIGHT to protect myself and others. Having not had it for most of my life I value it now I do.

I am a Brit at heart and always will be I suppose but you can take my gun out of my cold dead hand.
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  #53  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Which thread are you reading?
Are you saying theres no anti-gun sentiment in this thread?
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  #54  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:59 PM
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Many of these cases are not necessarily about guns and who should own them but about mental illness and how so many fall through the cracks. Whether these murder/ suicides use a gun or mow a sidewalk with an automobile peppered with pedestrians is irrelevant in my eyes. Most likely they would find a suitable tool to meet their grand mortal departure.
Though gun ownership is a big debate, I find it funny that many of these recent cases spark just that and not why these mentally unstable individuals are not being flagged as many showed signs of their downward spiral.
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  #55  
Old December 12th, 2012, 01:13 PM
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A good article I read recently on the subject: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...trol/309161/1/

r-
Ray
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  #56  
Old December 12th, 2012, 01:25 PM
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http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...+violent+crime
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  #57  
Old December 12th, 2012, 01:25 PM
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I give you the true definition of Gun Control... Use both hands while aiming and pulling the trigger.

In my past life, have lived in places where your firearm is your safe-line, everyone close to you wants to exterminate you , would placed bombs under your car, like most inexplicable attacks, performed in a cowardly manner ( behind the scenes or when you can see it ), regardless if I have ever pulled the trigger or not, I am adamant at being the Conduit of my own Destiny and not allow some idiot to choose for me, because last night he realized he has a 2" penis or whatever other excuse.

Would I become superman in a Mall shooting? will only depend on the situation, well trained CCW individuals are most of the times aware of their surroundings and will react accordingly.

Pedro is right, the Police ( for the most part it is not there to protect you, not 24/7 and everywhere at least ).

Rest assure if someone comes within my reach ( firearm or otherwise ) with the intent to inflict harm upon my loved ones better be prepared to kiss his/her ass goodbye.

Consequences? perhaps, but as the old say " I much rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 "

REMEMBER: Criminals do not obtain their firearms legally , so all you will do is disarm a law abiding citizen and enable the punk.

In conclusion, if any of the Anti want to become my neighbor, I will gladly place a sign in my yard for you

" Dear Asshole Criminal, I am a raving lunatic that believes in the rights given to me by the Founding Fathers and am armed, However, my next door neighbor believes in listening to your excuse why you raped his daughter and wife, kill his son, and going to mutilate him before you drive away with his money and car " , please follow the arrows to his house
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  #58  
Old December 12th, 2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Which thread are you reading?
Neal is reading this one through a gun sight ...
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  #59  
Old December 12th, 2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Neil McCauley View Post
Are you saying theres no anti-gun sentiment in this thread?
Correct. I see an article posted about a shooting in a crowded mall where the shooter shot and killed multiple people, and them himself.

I then see mostly condolences, then you saying no gun laws could prevent this. Then Jason saying asking what could prevent this. He also states he appreciates guns, but it appears he does not feel comfortable with gun violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Up front guns scare the shit out of me ... But I can see the attraction ... Cool technology ... Precision manufacturing ... Neal's photo collections ..
Jeff says the answer could lie in education and safety classes regarding guns.

There are mentions of being able to carry a loaded gun in public, with (if I'm reading it correctly) no opinion on that.

Then Campbell saying prevention may lie in greater power of psychiatric intervention, as it appears many who carry out mass shooting violence have been seen to have a history of mental illness.

Joel says this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crown14 View Post
...why would the prospect of getting killed first by an armed bystander made any difference? If you are prepared to kill yourself you are prepared to be killed by someone else.
and Scott says that when this type of person comes along, that the shooter could be stopped by an armed bystander, to which I disagree that this could effectively be carried out in a crowded mall, without collateral damage.

Doug says he'd rather be able to play than be a statistic, Derek agrees saying he'd like to "go down trying"

Shep says
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep29 View Post
1.) Death from weapons won't go down if gun laws are made more stringent or even if they were completely outlawed...
etc. etc. etc.

Again, which thread are you reading?
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  #60  
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:07 PM
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I would imagine that views vary with where you live ... NYC violent crime rates are lower and falling faster that my random sampling of cities

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...+violent+crime

I guess for a lot of people in NYC who have grown up without guns there is a less of a desire to have one, where guns are common place then it's more natural to be comfortable with the idea of having them.
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