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  #21  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by woldd90 View Post
Once he started shooting, an armed citizen could put him down and stop the attack, and probably hit a few innocent bystanders in the process.
Fixed it for you.
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  #22  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:44 AM
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This is why I like the Exmoor re-trim kits. They put pockets on the backs of the seats like other makes have.

Why Rover couldn't include those on its utilitarian model is beyond me.

When I travel outside my local area here (everyone here has guns)I typically slip a Berretta in the seat back. If some one decides to commit suicide and take others with them, I'm able to play rather than be a statistic.

I don't buy the left sentiment that gun control is a route to a Xanadu/ a utopian society. Looking @ Austrailia and Great Britain's experiences with outlawing short guns says this just isn't the case.
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  #23  
Old December 12th, 2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Fixed it for you.
Josh you would choose to be killed like rats in a barrel rather than defend yourself and others ?
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  #24  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:05 AM
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I have mixed thoughts about who should and shouldn't be able to own a gun but there are two things I absolutely believe.

1.) Death from weapons won't go down if gun laws are made more stringent or even if they were completely outlawed. They are here to stay no matter what. Crazy people will use whatever means necessary.

2.) Guns are the last line of defense from a future tyrannical government.
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  #25  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woldd90
Once he started shooting, an armed citizen could put him down and stop the attack, and probably hit a few innocent bystanders in the process.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Fixed it for you.

Really? Why would a trained, legal, concealed weapon, carrying citizen whip out a gun, and act like a gang-banger and shoot everyone in the direction of the assailant? They wouldn't.

More people die from car accidents than gun violence... Any and 16 YO with a shitty drivers ed class and a govt worker administered test can get a drivers license and be out on the road 15 minutes later. Josh, how many people have you killed with your car? What is to stop a person having a bad day from swerving over the double yellow line?
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  #26  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 130Tdi View Post
Josh you would choose to be killed like rats in a barrel rather than defend yourself and others ?
Doug, we're all just rats in a barrel basically at any given moment, as we live in a society where the actions of another can gravely affect us at any given time - especially on the road. If I went to the mall and one guy decided to shoot 3 people up, and 500 people were also carrying guns there, what do you think the best outcome would be? Just that shooter being killed with one to two shots, right? What do you think would actually happen? Do you honestly believe only one of those 500 people would pull out his or her gun, shoot the killer, and everyone would say hey nice that guy got him - nothing more for me to do here? No - there'd likely be panic, confusion, and there'd be multiple crossfires - probably with multiple people misidentifying who the actual shooter is, and misidentifying who is "helping". We see it all the time - even with the "most highly trained" police forces - one criminal pulls out a gun, 8 cops empty out their entire magazines, and the single criminal is not the only one to die.
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  #27  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
We see it all the time - even with the "most highly trained" police forces - one criminal pulls out a gun, 8 cops empty out their entire magazines, and the single criminal is not the only one to die.
This very thing happened in NYC a few months ago. How many bystanders were hit? It was a large number.
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  #28  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:56 AM
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I think there needs to be more attention paid the the insta-check system. It does a reasonably good job of making it harder for criminals to obtain firearms. Not perfect, but it helps.

However, as we've seen many times, we are dependent upon the medical\psychiatric profession to identify people that should not possess guns due to their mental state. It is becoming clear that the theater shooter here in Colorado was known to be a threat and yet no one acted. If someone is deemed mentally unstable, they should be rejected by insta-check. That never seems to happen.
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  #29  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:58 AM
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I CC my USP 9mm with TLR4 and 3 mags every wear with me. My wife also has her HK USP 9mm with TLR4 and 3mag in her purse every wear she goes......god help some one if I have to get out the trunk gun and vest.

------ Follow up post added December 12th, 2012 10:59 AM ------

130Tdi I agree 100%. I would rather go down trying then just go down. Had e ought getting shot at with out shooting back in Iraq for a life time.
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  #30  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rijosho View Post
Doug, we're all just rats in a barrel basically at any given moment, as we live in a society where the actions of another can gravely affect us at any given time - especially on the road. If I went to the mall and one guy decided to shoot 3 people up, and 500 people were also carrying guns there, what do you think the best outcome would be? Just that shooter being killed with one to two shots, right? What do you think would actually happen? Do you honestly believe only one of those 500 people would pull out his or her gun, shoot the killer, and everyone would say hey nice that guy got him - nothing more for me to do here? No - there'd likely be panic, confusion, and there'd be multiple crossfires - probably with multiple people misidentifying who the actual shooter is, and misidentifying who is "helping". We see it all the time - even with the "most highly trained" police forces - one criminal pulls out a gun, 8 cops empty out their entire magazines, and the single criminal is not the only one to die.
Most mass shootings occur where citizens are not allowed to carry concealed.

There is a corresponding trend in violence occurring in cities where citizens are not allowed to carry concealed. Take Chicago for instance.

Perception of gun violence is twisted by the media. A shooting where unarmed victims will get tons of play, a shooting where a citizen defend their life or someone else's life will get almost none. Unfortunately this is an issue where most get their edjuction from the television instead of their own research.
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  #31  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
This very thing happened in NYC a few months ago. How many bystanders were hit? It was a large number.
Jeffrey Johnson, 58, an out-of-work accessories designer, killed Steve Ercolino, with whom he had been feuding, on Friday in midtown Manhattan. Nine bystanders were wounded as the result of police gunfire, three hit by bullets and six injured by ricocheted fragments.
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  #32  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep29 View Post
I have mixed thoughts about who should and shouldn't be able to own a gun but there are two things I absolutely believe.

1.) Death from weapons won't go down if gun laws are made more stringent or even if they were completely outlawed. They are here to stay no matter what. Crazy people will use whatever means necessary.

2.) Guns are the last line of defense from a future tyrannical government.
Based on #2, YOU sound 100% crazy.

------ Follow up post added December 12th, 2012 08:39 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by giftshopduane View Post
Gun laws.. right to bear.. blah blah blah.. this guy was sick, as is/were others who commit atrocities like this. No guns laws, education or therapy will heal these people, if they want to kill others and themselves they will find a way to make their mark, using a gun is the cowardly/lazy way of doing it. This unfortunately is the reality of the situation not whether we should or shouldn't are or are not capable of owning/carrying a firearm.
This.
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  #33  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tommyd View Post
Based on #2, YOU sound 100% crazy.

------ Follow up post added December 12th, 2012 08:39 AM ------



This.
Tom- hey man dont mess with folks from Jersey...
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  #34  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
I think the answer is honest gun education/safety. The anti gun propaganda only incites fear. If everyone was comfortable with guns and carried one, alot of these wacko's would think twice.

-Jeff
You've got to be kidding. You really believe that if everyone carried guns, there would be fewer shootings? Someone who is intent on killing themselves anyways couldn't care less if everyone has a gun.

The idea that everyone having a gun is going to make the world a safer place is a fallacy.
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  #35  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by leastonce View Post
Jeffrey Johnson, 58, an out-of-work accessories designer, killed Steve Ercolino, with whom he had been feuding, on Friday in midtown Manhattan. Nine bystanders were wounded as the result of police gunfire, three hit by bullets and six injured by ricocheted fragments.
That would be the example. And when Johnson was shot, he didn't have his gun drawn, and nine STILL went down, from very close range no less. Thinking the police were less than 10 feet from Johnson.

My 2 cents is that we live in a safer place when the police, fed, and military types are among the masses in public places with their CC. They have years of specialized training and experience. My concern is when your typical weekend hunter or Joe first person shooter game dude decides his hours shooting on tube translates to being worthy of a CC permit and draws in a crowded public setting. I am okay with “Joe” having a CC to protect himself and family, but not intervening in a crowded setting.
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  #36  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:45 AM
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Tom- hey man dont mess with folks from Jersey...
Nah, don't mess with us Texans.
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  #37  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:46 AM
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As someone that puts 60K + miles on a company car per year I am more worried about getting hit / killed by distracted drivers than getting shot. Each day I see multiple people reading, txting or doing other stupid stuff crossing into oncoming lanes or going off the edge of the road.

I cannot control all of the other drivers on the road all I can do is put on my seatbelt, be aware of other drivers, be prepared to avoid an accident that best I can and have plenty of health / life insurance just in case.

Pretty much the same for everything in life you cannot control the environment around you, be aware, prepare for the possibility and outcome.
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  #38  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dave_lucas View Post
As someone that puts 60K + miles on a company car per year I am more worried about getting hit / killed by distracted drivers than getting shot. Each day I see multiple people reading, txting or doing other stupid stuff crossing into oncoming lanes or going off the edge of the road.

I cannot control all of the other drivers on the road all I can do is put on my seatbelt, be aware of other drivers, be prepared to avoid an accident that best I can and have plenty of health / life insurance just in case.

Pretty much the same for everything in life you cannot control the environment around you, be aware, prepare for the possibility and outcome.
Right on, and might I add, stop living in fear of being shot. You're at much higher risk from being struck by lightning.
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  #39  
Old December 12th, 2012, 11:56 AM
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The only person with a gun that would've stopped this is one of the victims. I carry. If I were in a mall and someone started shooting, there is no way I would go try to stop it. I would protect myself and my wife and get out of there. If the person was near me and I was in danger, then I would address the situation.
These topics are discussed in CC classes (or should be). I don't think that your average Joe is going to hear shots in the mall and go in try to rescue people. He would hopefully be thinking that putting himself in the situation would only make it more of a mess.
I doubt that any change in gun laws is going to have a drastic effect(?) on these shootings. The shooters are clearly sick and I don't know how taking away my gun rights is going to change these sickos.
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  #40  
Old December 12th, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JSBriggs View Post
It becomes a saftey vs liberty slippery slope. There is no easy answer.

-Jeff
In the end everyone has a valid point and it is a slippery slope like Jeff pointed out. To Toms point...sooner or later there would be less shootings...its a Darwin thing! Most law enforcement follow a rule similar to 11-11-3...11' or less, 11 seconds or less, 3 shots or less. Regular citizens will most likley take cover...people scatter it the general effect in a panic situation. The whole thing is a mixed bag with no easy answer.
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