NAS 110 value VS. UK/ROW - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old March 9th, 2009, 10:24 AM
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NAS 110 value VS. UK/ROW

Just thinking looking at the various trucks out there over the last year or so. I know this is an old and tired topic, but I haven't seen it discussed so much now that 90's and 110's are becoming more readily available from overseas. Right now it is mostly 83 and 84 trucks coming from the UK, but in the coming years more ROW trucks will become available with LHD, from model years that saw more ROW and EEC sales.

So besides the perceived collector value, and spiffy single-use rollcage, what are the advantages of a 35-70k NAS 110 that has all the rust and age-related issues of a foreign model? Aside from the two listed above, I can only think that maybe it is already licensed etc in the US, and you could conceivably see it before purchase although with the defender market, it seems there are a fair amount of sight-unseen purchases even within our borders.

And when you get out of the 110 market and into d-90's why would someone buy a completely rusted NAS 90 for 8-10k when that amount can get you something that is a running, going concern with no major issues?

Just thinking out loud. Sorry if this is a taboo topic
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  #2  
Old March 9th, 2009, 11:17 AM
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Part of the advantage will be perception of part availability and level of enthusiast involvement. I simply don't believe many people, except enthusiast nuts like ourselves, will even bother with a truck that was not originally sold in the US. NAS 90's and 110's are already at the bottom of their depreciation curve in my opinion and from here on out, condition will be the primary determinate of price.

BTW - I consider my opinion to be the final word on the matter and I discourage further discussion!

Follow-up Post:

Its not a taboo topic, just dreadfully hackneyed.
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  #3  
Old March 9th, 2009, 11:25 AM
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I would say that the two biggest reasons are:

1)NAS trucks will always hold their value better as opposed to an imported vehicle which will continue to depreciate just like all other vehicles

2)A '93 NAS 110 is still 10yrs newer than an '83 import, and if you are rebuilding one either way you might as well have the newer, limited edition one that does not suffer from the typical depreciation related to off the shelf vehicles.

If you are trying to decide between the two and are planning to rebuild one (or have it rebuilt by a shop), it makes the most sense to start with an NAS vehicle. The parts prices don't vary that much, so it all comes down to resale I think. Look at it this way, you could rebuild an $8k '83/'84 and you might get around $25k for it, but if you buy a $30k NAS 110 and rebuild it, you might see somewhere between $60-$150k for it. Obviously a huge range, heavily dependent on the quality of the rebuild and the economy (I don't think anyone is getting $150k with the economy as it is, but I know one sold for about that a couple years ago).

If you are really just concerned with a good daily driver, the ROW probably makes more sense, but as an investment, or if you forsee yourself selling in a few years, it seems like it makes more economic sense to stick with NAS vehicles.

Just my $.02
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  #4  
Old March 9th, 2009, 01:35 PM
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I think the below statement pretty much sums up my viewpoint as well. I do disagree on the depreciation factor though, as I have yet to see much depreciation in any proper-shaped LR's in the US, that is 90's, 110's and Series. Disocs and RR's obviously do suffer from it quite a bit. There are just too many of the NAS ones to have much if any collector value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stmpede
If you are really just concerned with a good daily driver, the ROW probably makes more sense, but as an investment, or if you forsee yourself selling in a few years, it seems like it makes more economic sense to stick with NAS vehicles.

Just my $.02
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  #5  
Old March 9th, 2009, 02:23 PM
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NAS will always be the best, even if it is just the title it is built on and the badge on the back that are left of the original truck.
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  #6  
Old March 9th, 2009, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching
I think the below statement pretty much sums up my viewpoint as well. I do disagree on the depreciation factor though, as I have yet to see much depreciation in any proper-shaped LR's in the US, that is 90's, 110's and Series. Disocs and RR's obviously do suffer from it quite a bit. There are just too many of the NAS ones to have much if any collector value.
Well, I agree that thus far, there has not been much depreciation, but that is due to the relatively low quantity that have made their way here so far. However, as the years drag on and more and more ROW vehicles become eligible for importation it is going to affect resale of the imported trucks. It all comes back to supply and demand. The supply of NAS vehicles is essentially fixed (actually slowly declining) whereas the supply of ROW vehicles will steadily increase every year. Thats the way I look at it anyway.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 02:44 PM
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I have been wondering myself if in ten years when 1993 row defenders come in what it would do to NAS truck values The thing is the NAS trucks are unique in some of their parts (rollcage) and that they were made for the US. The 110s were especially limited. As each year goes by, more and more NAS trucks are destroyed or restored. I figure this can only help the values. Also being left hand drive to start doesnt hurt. Yeah I know you can import lhd ones.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 03:29 PM
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I agree with that too. Although as enthusiast vehicles, I think their value will always be driven by condition rather than year of manufacture or mileage like more common vehicles. I think the average US price of a Euro/ROW/Uk truck will level off when there is sufficient supply here to satisfy the market. Same as Stage One v8 109s, 101 FC's etc that were once not allowed on these shores. And at that point, crappy ones will fetch realistic prices and not so crappy ones will fetch prices more akin to the current field of Series trucks. And for people who want a collector vehicle, or who live in states that are tough on emissions, there will always be NAS trucks available.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stmpede
Well, I agree that thus far, there has not been much depreciation, but that is due to the relatively low quantity that have made their way here so far. However, as the years drag on and more and more ROW vehicles become eligible for importation it is going to affect resale of the imported trucks. It all comes back to supply and demand. The supply of NAS vehicles is essentially fixed (actually slowly declining) whereas the supply of ROW vehicles will steadily increase every year. Thats the way I look at it anyway.
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  #9  
Old March 9th, 2009, 03:32 PM
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The NAS defenders will always retain value think about it. in '93 535 110's came thats simply supply and demand, in '94 the ST had the rollcage which was only avialable to the NAS spec defenders, 95 brought 500 SW's more rarity, and 97 was AUTo and a engine never used before or after it.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 03:38 PM
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If you want an investment, buy an original, unrestored, low-mileage NAS. Everything else is a driver.

I also defy anyone to point to a single example, of any marque, of any model, where importation of any kind has affected values of vehicles in the states at all, period. Ferrais? Nope. BMW? Nope. Anything else? Show me.
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  #11  
Old March 9th, 2009, 03:40 PM
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I agree, the NAS 110 will hold its value up to a point. As a supplier of 83/4 trucks their value varies, I have sold base trucks for $6k to clients wanting to rebuild, and refurbished trucks for $25,000 with 300tdi's and R380 gearboxes.
But why would any one pay 'somewhere between $60-$150k for it'? for a refurbished NAS 110, when we have rebuilt 1983/4 LHD stationwagons using all new parts and can supply them with new tdi engines & a/c for as little as $45,000 plus shipping. We can also fit full NAS roll cages if required.

We have sold a couple of the rebuilds to private clients in the last 2 years.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 03:41 PM
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In the old porsche market, the euro buyers (up until the crash) drove the price of US 911s up about 100% in two years.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by globallandrovers
I agree, the NAS 110 will hold its value up to a point. As a supplier of 83/4 trucks their value varies, I have sold base trucks for $6k to clients wanting to rebuild, and refurbished trucks for $25,000 with 300tdi's and R380 gearboxes.
But why would any one pay 'somewhere between $60-$150k for it'? for a refurbished NAS 110, when we have rebuilt 1983/4 LHD stationwagons using all new parts and can supply them with new tdi engines & a/c for as little as $45,000 plus shipping. We can also fit full NAS roll cages if required.

We have sold a couple of the rebuilds to private clients in the last 2 years.
I understand that, i never said i would pay 70k for a 110, thats ridiculous. but someone will.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 03:51 PM
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Interesting. I've also heard of folks selling restored Series LR's back to england when the pound was higher against the dollar.

To address Jim's remark, I think the LR market is a different animal in that the number of US vehicles is so limited. Even with that limited number, prices have dropped dramatically and there always seem to be enough of them for sale. So it is not really an issue of a supply side shortage.

I think some interesting ideas and viewpoints are being shared here beyond the usual banter on the topic, so I'm glad I brought it up.



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Originally Posted by evilfij
In the old porsche market, the euro buyers (up until the crash) drove the price of US 911s up about 100% in two years.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
In the old porsche market, the euro buyers (up until the crash) drove the price of US 911s up about 100% in two years.
Ok, so the value went up - there's the exception that proves the rule.

I have a 1969 European spec Alfa Romeo GTV. It is considered by any enthusiast to be of equivalent value to a US model.

I also have a 1984 Euro spec M635csi, and the value is not any different than a US spec version. The Euro has smaller bumpers and more HP, but some people don't want grey market, so you pays you money you takes your choice.

I also have a 1995 Euro spec BMW 540i wagon. There are none others in the states that I know of. Is it especially valuable? No, its of such limited appeal that it isn't worth any more than a US spec 540 sedan.

The people who are paying north of 100k for custom defenders are the same people that pay for half-million dollar hot rods. Sure there's always someone who can do it cheaper, but not usually someone who can do it better & cheaper. (remember: fast, cheap, good - pick any two).

I maintain that imported defenders will not affect the market for NAS ones at all. They're apples and oranges to anyone that knows anything about them, and a fungible commodity to anyone else.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
They're apples and oranges to anyone that knows anything about them, and a fungible commodity to anyone else.
I admit I don't know what fungible means but it sounds like something that you don't want on an apple OR an orange.

I guess this statement drives at the point of my post. Which is what do you see as the apple/orange differences between NAS and "other" LR's? We've already established collector value as one, as well as the fact that they come with a single-use rollcage. Some have autobox and single model year only engine.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
If you want an investment, buy an original, unrestored, low-mileage NAS. Everything else is a driver.

I also defy anyone to point to a single example, of any marque, of any model, where importation of any kind has affected values of vehicles in the states at all, period. Ferrais? Nope. BMW? Nope. Anything else? Show me.
Well, I don't think it really proves your point as it is quite the entirely opposite case but I would bring up the G. When they weren't available in the states Europa managed to import quite a few and charged basically whatever they wanted. Unbelievably, now that they're sold through Mercedes-Benz dealers, and start at over 100K, they're cheaper. So here is a case where the availability of imported models decreased the value of existing models... although now the imports are new vehicles with warranties and dealer support.

So, to completely (dis?)prove your point... uh.... yeah. That's all I got.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 05:04 PM
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It also comes down to condition. My brother had a 1971 Mercedes 280 SL. Talk about prices being all over the place. Concours cars were 90k, and daily drivers were everywhere from 20 to 60k
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Old March 9th, 2009, 05:18 PM
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Gasoline is fungible, grain is fungible. Commodity products are typically fungible, with exceptions. the point is that a defender, no matter the source, is essentially just a defender to the uninitiated. They're interchangeable. The presences of grey market ones will not drag down the NAS, more likely the NAS would drag up the prices of the grey market if there was any effect at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching
I guess this statement drives at the point of my post. Which is what do you see as the apple/orange differences between NAS and "other" LR's? We've already established collector value as one, as well as the fact that they come with a single-use rollcage. Some have autobox and single model year only engine.
The apples and oranges distinction is essentially the ontological argument that a Euro Spec Defender is not a NAS spec Defender. Yes, the differences are well-known, but one is not the other. Grey market vehicles will never be tracked by KBB, Edmunds, CPI, etc, they will never in fact have a "market" of their own. They will always be exceptions. Even though there are less than 10,000 NAS Defenders in total, it will take a long long time for individual imports to even remotely approach that figure (even though the quantity of NAS trucks must necessarily decrease). Moreover, they will never be considered as a group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching
To address Jim's remark, I think the LR market is a different animal in that the number of US vehicles is so limited. Even with that limited number, prices have dropped dramatically and there always seem to be enough of them for sale. So it is not really an issue of a supply side shortage.
Supply and demand is one thing, but just because supply and demand are in equilibrium doesn't mean that the price should fall, and the presence of vehicles on the market shouldn't necessarily be seen as anything other than the existence of a market. Its hard to argue that a sale of a grey-market defender means that one less sale if a NAS truck. People that want one probably wouldn't buy the other - therefore supply and demand of NAS trucks is not affected.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treuwer
Well, I don't think it really proves your point as it is quite the entirely opposite case but I would bring up the G. When they weren't available in the states Europa managed to import quite a few and charged basically whatever they wanted. Unbelievably, now that they're sold through Mercedes-Benz dealers, and start at over 100K, they're cheaper. So here is a case where the availability of imported models decreased the value of existing models... although now the imports are new vehicles with warranties and dealer support.

So, to completely (dis?)prove your point... uh.... yeah. That's all I got.
A very odd case to be sure, but its also not a parallel example, because you're talking about a vehicle that was for all intents and purposes not available in the US except in extremely small quantities from a small vendor. Essentially what happened there was Mercedes decided to starting "dumping" G-wagens on the market and the price went down because supply increased so dramatically (to use a generic explanation - the real reason the price went down was because thats where the MSRP was). You'll notice however that G-kab prices are still very high.

I maintain that no grey market vehicles have affected the price of pre-existing US-spec cars. The only way that US Defender prices will be fundamentally affected by imports is if LR brings in new ones for less money. Otherwise the US market will continue to do its own thing, and that may be a reduction in prices, but it won't be because of imports.
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  #20  
Old March 9th, 2009, 05:30 PM
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Thanks jim, I see what you mean now and I think you are right that the value is what it is and one does not affect the other. I certainly never gave serious thought to buying a NAS 90.

But my question was what are the advantages of the NAS over the ROW vehicle to the average buyer, given the condition of most of the sub $12k NAs trucks I've seen posted here I'd say very little from a practical standpoint. unless one wants a collector car and a long expensive project. Which is cool, I've had those too...

Thanks again guys for taking a frequently heated and oft-repeated topic and having an informative, well thought out discussion about it. I think we've gone a bit deeper into some aspects of it that I have not seen tocuhed on before.

I'm more of a gut-level guy when it comes to vehicle purchase decisions, and I have a degree in fine arts so market economics are not a strong subject for me.

cheers
d
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