NAS 110 value VS. UK/ROW - Page 2 - Defender Source
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  #21  
Old March 9th, 2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
Its hard to argue that a sale of a grey-market defender means that one less sale if a NAS truck. People that want one probably wouldn't buy the other
Agreed, as a recent UK spec buyer, I was never in the NAS market. While similar in nature they are not equivalent and I'm darn pleased of that fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching
But my question was what are the advantages of the NAS over the ROW vehicle to the average buyer, given the condition of most of the sub $12k NAs trucks I've seen posted here I'd say very little from a practical standpoint.
I'm not sure what an 'average buyer' is. None of us seem to exhibit anything resembling average.

On a price-condition basis alone for a driver, there seems to be little rationale for NAS in the lower price band (sub~20k). Above that, there seems to be a degree of cachet for the NAS label, independent of the driveablity. While it does nothing for me, I can appreciate why it might for others.

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  #22  
Old March 9th, 2009, 09:53 PM
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Dendy Jarrett
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So, may I be so insane as to take this a step further in discussion?

I am a NAS 110 owner and find myself lusting over a ROW 110 300TDi. I mean, yes, the NAS 110 status in the Land Rover world is nice (as I always felt the NAS 110 as a pinnacle vehicle), but it is after all a gas engine full of computer controls.

It is hard to argue against a ROW truck if you intend to 'use' these trucks as they were intended. I drive my NAS every day as a daily driver (granted my commute is less than 2 minutes to our business), but we prefer taking the 110 over the 06 Range Rover when we go on long trips.

There is always that little devil sitting on your shoulder with any of the NAS spec trucks going 'will you break-down today'. I have always maintained my trucks to the upmost, but when you consider that a fuel pump for a NAS truck can run in the hundreds, and a fuel pump for a diesel is ... what $35 bucks?

You have to consider that there is a reason why the Rest of the World use 300TDi's. I mean you can travel cross country in a TDi with about $300 worth of spares, and they have NO electronics to speak of. If you tried that with a V8, you'd have to have thousands in spares (and that would take care of the ECU, ... right?)

So, when do you consider function over a 'perceived' value?

Or, do you (says with tongue in cheek) butcher a NAS110 with a 300TDi install? Does that affect the overall value (up ... or down?)

OK, I concede the soupbox, ... cuss and discuss

Dendy
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  #23  
Old March 9th, 2009, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NashvilleRover
So, may I be so insane as to take this a step further in discussion?

I am a NAS 110 owner and find myself lusting over a ROW 110 300TDi. I mean, yes, the NAS 110 status in the Land Rover world is nice (as I always felt the NAS 110 as a pinnacle vehicle), but it is after all a gas engine full of computer controls.

It is hard to argue against a ROW truck if you intend to 'use' these trucks as they were intended. I drive my NAS every day as a daily driver (granted my commute is less than 2 minutes to our business), but we prefer taking the 110 over the 06 Range Rover when we go on long trips.

There is always that little devil sitting on your shoulder with any of the NAS spec trucks going 'will you break-down today'. I have always maintained my trucks to the upmost, but when you consider that a fuel pump for a NAS truck can run in the hundreds, and a fuel pump for a diesel is ... what $35 bucks?

You have to consider that there is a reason why the Rest of the World use 300TDi's. I mean you can travel cross country in a TDi with about $300 worth of spares, and they have NO electronics to speak of. If you tried that with a V8, you'd have to have thousands in spares (and that would take care of the ECU, ... right?)

So, when do you consider function over a 'perceived' value?

Or, do you (says with tongue in cheek) butcher a NAS110 with a 300TDi install? Does that affect the overall value (up ... or down?)

OK, I concede the soupbox, ... cuss and discuss

Dendy
The 300TDI in in a NAS wouldn't kill the price it would bring the value of the vehicle up, because the TDI is in high demand- and it is just a great engine
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  #24  
Old March 10th, 2009, 12:32 AM
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I would say that the rarity of an original clean and unmolested NAS 110 will be extremely desirable in the next decade. As another post said, more original NAS 110s are disappearing and collectors will scoop up good originals. I would only put a 300tdi in either a fully restored vehicle or a rough driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnsD90
The 300TDI in in a NAS wouldn't kill the price it would bring the value of the vehicle up, because the TDI is in high demand- and it is just a great engine
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  #25  
Old March 10th, 2009, 06:26 AM
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Just one more point on vehicle values.. In the Uk WW2 Jeeps cost a fortune, rough jeeps ie rust buckets and non runners sell for about 3-4000, running restoration projects fetch 5-6000, and immaculat3 restorations can fetch as much as 18,000 for a slat grill 41 willys.

Series 1 land rovers restored here go for as much as 8,000

A restored stage 1 v8 stationwagon can go for 6000

DUKW's fetch from 5000 unrestored to 100,000 restored.

And tanks fetch silly money too, especially german ones.

Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ching

But my question was what are the advantages of the NAS over the ROW vehicle to the average buyer, given the condition of most of the sub $12k NAs trucks I've seen posted here I'd say very little from a practical standpoint. unless one wants a collector car and a long expensive project. Which is cool, I've had those too...


d
Being in the 'ROW' i'd say generally our trucks are better. Mainly because theres so many more to choose from. As a foreigner I have been watching the US market for many years, back in the early 90's I supplied US dealer with series vehicles. Now I sell direct. I have noticed there a 3 distinct types of US buyers.
There the true enthusiast, The wannabe or noobie, and the 'I want something my next door neighbour can't afford' type

The enthusiast is just that passionate about the mark
the wannabe is new to the marque and talks big game but really knows very little, with time these may turn into true enthusiasts.
The latter tend to polish their defenders, never take them out in wet weather incase they get dirty, and keep them in climate controlled vaccum sealed garages/vaults.

There are excetions in all cases.

In advance I appologise If I have offended anyone, no offense was intended, and these are just observations gathered since 1989 when i first sold a Landy to the USA.
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  #26  
Old March 14th, 2010, 07:05 PM
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It's going to be curious to see once the first ROW truck goes through an ECR level restoration what it will bring if sold outright?

By ECR level restoration I mean taken down to the nut and bolt level and built back up as new... I realize that there are a couple of these underway already. SOOO I am watching and waiting to see what the future holds.

As stated Earlier the NAS trucks hold a certain value just because there are a VERY limited number of them.

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  #27  
Old March 14th, 2010, 07:43 PM
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Just to provide another perspective- up til last year, NAS 90s and 110s were available to anyone who could qualify for a loan, and they were typically a third vehicle. These days they are being dumped d/t financial restraints making the toys disappear. As such, the ones being kept are actually becoming drivers for some, and being maintained as such, aka reliable for obvious reasons. So, now the NAS and ROW markets are predominantly a cash purchase, yielding fewer trucks being purchased, hence lower prices. And as cash buyers, they can now choose to purchase ROW trucks, aka Tdi/Td5s, which is cheaper and easier than converting- and most often better in the end. I cannot predict where prices will go for either, but overall it is a much different market with many more factors than just ROW vs. NAS me thinks....
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  #28  
Old March 14th, 2010, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovertrader View Post
And as cash buyers, they can now choose to purchase ROW trucks, aka Tdi/Td5s, which is cheaper and easier than converting- and most often better in the end. I cannot predict where prices will go for either, but overall it is a much different market with many more factors than just ROW vs. NAS me thinks....
As usual I couldn't agree more my friend. Another point not yet made is that Rover was cutting a lot of corners relative to quality in the 90's. Early trucks were better built imho. On a NAS truck the only thing galvanized were the inner fenders and paint prep/priming was pretty poor.
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  #29  
Old March 14th, 2010, 08:11 PM
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The ECR restores never trade hands for what they cost initially. It comes down to if you have the money for an ECR rebuild typically you will pay them for exactly what you want and not buy a second hand one. Then again there are people out there who don't want to wait and rather just buy one ready to go. At this price level though the market is so small and hard to gauge whether we are talking NAS or ROW trucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSC_GUY View Post
It's going to be curious to see once the first ROW truck goes through an ECR level restoration what it will bring if sold outright?

By ECR level restoration I mean taken down to the nut and bolt level and built back up as new... I realize that there are a couple of these underway already. SOOO I am watching and waiting to see what the future holds.

As stated Earlier the NAS trucks hold a certain value just because there are a VERY limited number of them.

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  #30  
Old March 14th, 2010, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSC_GUY View Post
It's going to be curious to see once the first ROW truck goes through an ECR level restoration what it will bring if sold outright?

By ECR level restoration I mean taken down to the nut and bolt level and built back up as new... I realize that there are a couple of these underway already. SOOO I am watching and waiting to see what the future holds.

As stated Earlier the NAS trucks hold a certain value just because there are a VERY limited number of them.

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The ECR restored ROW will be quite expensive, maybe not as much as a full blown NAS 110 would but it would be right up there, especially if its a like a 05 TD5 Doublecab 110. As i said earlier the Soft Tops will hold there value the longest of all the NAS trucks.
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  #31  
Old March 14th, 2010, 09:08 PM
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If someone had a New NAS 110 and a New Euro LHD 300tdi 110, I would not even look at the NAS truck. I think the prices of NAS 100 is just rediculous. Pay all that money for just a SD cage Upgrade? That can be installed on any 110. If you want to restore a 110, I would just look for a good body to work from. who cares about if its NAS or Euro..

I think the NAS soft tops will be more rare now that the cages are impossible to get.
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  #32  
Old March 15th, 2010, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovertrader
The real measure of your wealth is how much you'd be worth if you lost all your money
So if I have no money left because I spent it all on two Defenders, how wealthy am I?
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  #33  
Old March 16th, 2010, 09:07 AM
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I would have to argue that for a NAS 110 or NAS 90 to hold its maximum value in the years to come, it should remain un-altered, low mileage and unrestored. It should be left as an example as when it left the factory. If you look at antique cars, the unrestored cars with matching engine and transmission numbers fetch the highest resale amounts. IMO a 300tdi is wonderful and very desirable in a daily driver but if you install it in a NAS 110, sometime in the future it will actually devalue the vehicle. That is if the NAS 110 were purchased soley for investment purposes.
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  #34  
Old March 16th, 2010, 10:00 AM
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If you look back throughout history, original stock trucks will be always worth more, and the limited numbers of NAS trucks will always hold their value. When the economy is humming, values go up, in a bad economy prices come down.

If you watch the Barrett Jackson auctions, the original cars with rare options bring the most money, the clones have a legitimate market, but do not bring the same money, look at the upgraded Camaro's, the Hemi clones and Cobra clones, they have little or no impact on the legitimate cars.

Since the Defenders are essentially interchangeable, a well used truck can be revived to original specifications and restored to bring good money. IMHO, a renewed 85 truck with a 300TDI and a SD cage is ideal for me, but it will never sell for the money a restored NAS 110 would bring. Just like taking a 68 6 cylinder Camaro and turning it into a RS/SS 396 Camero won't bring the same money an original 68 RS/SS 396 Camaro would bring.
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  #35  
Old March 16th, 2010, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woldd90 View Post
If you look back throughout history, original stock trucks will be always worth more, and the limited numbers of NAS trucks will always hold their value. When the economy is humming, values go up, in a bad economy prices come down.

If you watch the Barrett Jackson auctions, the original cars with rare options bring the most money, the clones have a legitimate market, but do not bring the same money, look at the upgraded Camaro's, the Hemi clones and Cobra clones, they have little or no impact on the legitimate cars.

Since the Defenders are essentially interchangeable, a well used truck can be revived to original specifications and restored to bring good money. IMHO, a renewed 85 truck with a 300TDI and a SD cage is ideal for me, but it will never sell for the money a restored NAS 110 would bring. Just like taking a 68 6 cylinder Camaro and turning it into a RS/SS 396 Camero won't bring the same money an original 68 RS/SS 396 Camaro would bring.

I am afraid you are correct SIR ! ! ! Even though an older 110 FULLY restored, with say a good Turbo Diesel and done up suspension (maybe even an SD or other cage cage) will be a more capable vehicle. I am curious to know how many NAS 110 owners actually wheel their vehicles? I fear that I would not take a NICE NAS 110 off of pavement...

RATS ! ! ! that Land Rover North America did not continue the importation and created this situation... Funny in just about every Land Rover Dealership I have ever set foot in, most of the sales staff roll their eyes at even the mention of the Defender 110. Proably becuse they are tired of "why can't I get one? questions.

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  #36  
Old March 16th, 2010, 12:54 PM
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That is because most of the LR Sales staff have no clue about the Defenders, 90's or 110's. There are exceptions, like Kelly in Nashville and a few of the guys here in Atlanta. But, most of them have not been around long enough, since the last new Defender was on the showroom floor over 13 years ago.

I took my SW to a LR farm function a few months ago and several of the Dealer Staff were pissed that I brought that instead of my RR. Their target market is not the off-road crowd. They sell more chrome wheels than winches now.

One of my friends here in ATL, off-roads his 110 and it is a 32K mile truck, that has already been to ECR. Although, he is not taking it to the King of Hammers, but he used to live in CO and wheeled it there before moving to Atlanta.
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  #37  
Old March 16th, 2010, 01:45 PM
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I have serious doubts about the value of any Rover product holding value long term as in, would it stand up as an investment the same way a GTO or a Shelby Cobra. The NAS 110s are not holding up mechanically or cosmetically unless they have been garaged as trailer queens, seriously devaluing them as anything more than a quaint novelty. With an imminent flood tide of vehicles with better selection as far as mechanicals and variety go, the true enthusiast will leave the prissy NAS 110 on the shelf.
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  #38  
Old June 30th, 2014, 10:51 PM
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In my NAS vs. ROW research I came across this old thread. I recently purchased a ROW that has been overhauled and I plan to overhaul it more and drive it as much as possible. It seems to me that since this thread was created, NAS vehicles have become much more collectible but really seem to go up in value once they've been restored. "Original" doesn't seem to matter as much as it does other collectible cars. Buyers seem to want a Defender that looks like it just came off the showroom floor on London. Probably because "you can't have one" more than anything else.

I plan on fully restoring my ROW over time and I'd love to add as much aftermarket stuff to it as I can. I realize it will never be worth what an NAS is but it also didn't cost me nearly as much as an NAS. At the end of the day, mechanically and LHD it basically is the same thing as a NAS right? No, this isn't an investment for me, I just love the trucks and I've always wanted one I can drive and upgrade. I don't want a "collectible" Defender because then I won't drive it. I also don't want a $250K+ restored NAS Defender because then I won't drive it. I want a kick ass, LHD Defender I can use when I want.

So how do you guys feel about ROW vehicles now vs. 2009?
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  #39  
Old June 30th, 2014, 11:31 PM
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The continued rise in NAS prices are clearly the result of the continued use of quantitative easing and other expansionary monetary policies being used by the central bankers in order to keep the central planners happy (and cover up their mistakes). More dollars are chasing a dwindling supply of NAS Defenders. No different than the rise in the price of beef, bacon, limes, coffee, eggs and so on and so forth.
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  #40  
Old June 30th, 2014, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
The continued rise in NAS prices are clearly the result of the continued use of quantitative easing and other expansionary monetary policies being used by the central bankers in order to keep the central planners happy (and cover up their mistakes). More dollars are chasing a dwindling supply of NAS Defenders. No different than the rise in the price of beef, bacon, limes, coffee, eggs and so on and so forth.
You explained it so much better than Randolph and Mortimer Duke did!
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