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  #81  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Bull shit.

I have yet to see a single import truck advertised on this site that has a rebuilt transmission and tcase and major engine overhaul. People consistently buy flashy pieces of shit for $35k-50k on this site and have their vehicles shit the bed a few months later if not within the first week. There was a 110 5 door recently that a bunch of folks ogled over that sold for $35k. Comments on how great the paint looked. There was overspray EVERYWHERE! !! I'd wager 50 bucks I know the sound that truck's transmission makes.

If you pay for a shiny turd and don't have it refurbished mechanically then you are at fault.

The air con hoses are pretty ghetto for the price in this case and the body matched flares paint chipping. I can't tell about the leak from the pics but I know the shipping/processing company pressure washed the shit out of my truck so maybe it somehow got fudged? I can't imagine a torn down and reassembled truck would leak that way considering my truck is 30+ years on original roof rubber seals and it doesn't leak.

The stance that the masses are taking of "this truck has shiny paint therefore every piece on the truck must be new" is ridiculous, though.
You sound like sticking people with shit trucks is the new way to do business and should be tolerated since they should know better. My point is that anyone spending that amount of money should actually be getting a vehicle that can run down the road and operate! The fact that people are being fu@ked left and right during these transactions shouldn't make it the new norm! That's some jacked up thinking you have! Here's a concept...How about people actually deliver what they advertise??!
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  #82  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SonnyAK View Post
You sound like sticking people with shit trucks is the new way to do business and should be tolerated since they should know better. My point is that anyone spending that amount of money should actually be getting a vehicle that can run down the road and operate! The fact that people are being fu@ked left and right during these transactions shouldn't make it the new norm! That's some jacked up thinking you have! Here's a concept...How about people actually deliver what they advertise??!
Sonny, you nailed it IMO. The tolerance has gotten way to high IMO. There has to be some resistance to these polished POS trucks coming in for the stupid prices.

Buyers also need to try and look past the ass-kissing posts some post on behalf of these vendors.
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  #83  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 07:54 AM
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I know from my own personal build that paint don't matter. Currently the paint work is far from right.
But I've pretty much decided a respray in 18 months or so to get it right will be the way to go. In the meantime, my focus will be addressing any mechanical issues that crop up.
Currently that is an axle seal thats given up after 20 years of use.
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  #84  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Bull shit.

I have yet to see a single import truck advertised on this site that has a rebuilt transmission and tcase and major engine overhaul. People consistently buy flashy pieces of shit for $35k-50k on this site and have their vehicles shit the bed a few months later if not within the first week. There was a 110 5 door recently that a bunch of folks ogled over that sold for $35k. Comments on how great the paint looked. There was overspray EVERYWHERE! !! I'd wager 50 bucks I know the sound that truck's transmission makes.

If you pay for a shiny turd and don't have it refurbished mechanically then you are at fault.

The air con hoses are pretty ghetto for the price in this case and the body matched flares paint chipping. I can't tell about the leak from the pics but I know the shipping/processing company pressure washed the shit out of my truck so maybe it somehow got fudged? I can't imagine a torn down and reassembled truck would leak that way considering my truck is 30+ years on original roof rubber seals and it doesn't leak.

The stance that the masses are taking of "this truck has shiny paint therefore every piece on the truck must be new" is ridiculous, though.
Ha. You realize this post just agrees with why I started this thread. You're fully admitting/agreeing that these restored trucks coming from Europe are total garbage.
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  #85  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 08:15 AM
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There are two main voices in these types of arguments:

1. Buyer should have known better (for a variety of reasons)
2. Seller was totally at fault for selling bad truck.

For some reason, people argue these points passionately like Christianity vs Islam, but unlike the religious argument, these are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
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  #86  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason1st View Post
Ha. You realize this post just agrees with why I started this thread. You're fully admitting/agreeing that these restored trucks coming from Europe are total garbage.
I completely agree that trucks coming in are garbage. What I don't get is how everybody apparently agrees they are too expensive but folks aren't shopping for a beat body with all new mechanicals. That's what my truck has been since day one and nobody wanted to buy it for $18k because it was 50 shades of fade when I moved back to the US.

To SonnyAK, if people keep shopping for shiny paint the dealers will keep on making bank by selling crap. If people aren't buying vehicles with all new drive train and specifics on what components are replaced with new the buyers will keep getting crap. People assume because they spend lots, everything is new. There is close to a $20k mark up on most vehicles that are imported with shiny paint. The ex mods all have a $7k mark up with no mechanical restoration no matter how "nice" they are.

WHEN THIS SITE GROWS UP AND LET'S PEOPLE SHIT ON FOR SALE THREADS THIS COMMUNITY WILL BE BETTER OFF! !! You all bring it on yourselves.
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  #87  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I completely agree that trucks coming in are garbage. What I don't get is how everybody apparently agrees they are too expensive but folks aren't shopping for a beat body with all new mechanicals. That's what my truck has been since day one and nobody wanted to buy it for $18k because it was 50 shades of fade when I moved back to the US.

To SonnyAK, if people keep shopping for shiny paint the dealers will keep on making bank by selling crap. If people aren't buying vehicles with all new drive train and specifics on what components are replaced with new the buyers will keep getting crap. People assume because they spend lots, everything is new. There is close to a $20k mark up on most vehicles that are imported with shiny paint. The ex mods all have a $7k mark up with no mechanical restoration no matter how "nice" they are.

WHEN THIS SITE GROWS UP AND LET'S PEOPLE SHIT ON FOR SALE THREADS THIS COMMUNITY WILL BE BETTER OFF! !! You all bring it on yourselves.
I think you didn't read Rivermikes FOR SALE thread that I posted a link to in my first post. He lists the many, many mechanical upgrades he did to this truck. He wasn't selling just a paint job. Go read it.
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  #88  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
There are two main voices in these types of arguments:

1. Buyer should have known better (for a variety of reasons)
a. Do a pre inspection
b. Have realistic expectations for an old truck that wasn't put together great in the first place.
c. Don't put lipstick on a pig (I've done it, it was a mistake, it happens).
d. If having a renovation or additional work performed then a completion inspection is in order.
2. Seller was totally at fault for selling bad truck.
a. Ads should describe what was done and not what will be done.
b. intentionally left blank.
Everything else aside, that AC doesn't cut it at $3k.

We get lots of "new to Defenders" people that need to have their expectations set. Threads like this make it seem that, regardless of purchase price, a truck should be a cream puff museum piece with a 3yr 30k mile warranty. This helps establish an unrealistic expectation.

For sellers on the site: I think it's disclaimer time:

You are purchasing a 25 year old truck that regardless of mileage will often require extensive maintenance and service to be mechanically sound. Vehicle is sold as is with no warranty. It is highly recommended that you have a Pre Purchase Inspection performed.
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  #89  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason1st View Post
I think you didn't read Rivermikes FOR SALE thread that I posted a link to in my first post. He lists the many, many mechanical upgrades he did to this truck. He wasn't selling just a paint job. Go read it.
I read the snapshots ppl posted. I didn't read the old one. I'm mostly speaking in general here versus just about yours. I think the "new" ac lines speak for themselves about what you got in your instance.
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  #90  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:43 AM
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btw, am I the only one who noticed the obvious paint over rusted steel in the original for sale ad?
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  #91  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:44 AM
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I've got this 110 5 door for sale for 15k, already US titled. I'd imagine someone putting 30k into it could have a lot nicer truck than this. But, from what I've seen, the majority of people want to buy a truck that is already "done." It's completely understandable for a buyer to want that. I hope this situation gets worked out for the best, good luck.
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  #92  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 10:17 AM
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As someone in the market, this thread has served one purpose - think twice before sending money overseas for a used truck. I, for one, am not going to risk a purchase from the import market. I think I would rather buy something "as is" than "restored" (i.e. painted over with color on the sheet metal and black gook on the underside).

In my recent experience communicating with overseas marketers, the routine is as follows:
1) we just got a great rust free truck from X country 'where it never rains';
2) teaser price of $20-30K USD shipped; (wow, what a bargain compared to NAS vehicle)
3) its being restored now, and if you want to make any additions; we can do whatever you want for an extra $ Y dollars;
4) send money now, very limited availability of good trucks.
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  #93  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JG GT3RS View Post
As someone in the market, this thread has served one purpose - think twice before sending money overseas for a used truck. I, for one, am not going to risk a purchase from the import market. I think I would rather buy something "as is" than "restored" (i.e. painted over with color on the sheet metal and black gook on the underside).

In my recent experience communicating with overseas marketers, the routine is as follows:
1) we just got a great rust free truck from X country 'where it never rains';
2) teaser price of $20-30K USD shipped; (wow, what a bargain compared to NAS vehicle)
3) its being restored now, and if you want to make any additions; we can do whatever you want for an extra $ Y dollars;
4) send money now, very limited availability of good trucks.
The truck could very well be from the Gobi Desert driven by an old monk to temple every Sunday but you still need to fly out and inspect it personally. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and I want to believe that everybody is good and honest but I know way better than that. A $10 item from China off of EBay, I'll try it. A $20k truck, I'm going to see it in person.
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  #94  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JG GT3RS View Post
As someone in the market, this thread has served one purpose - think twice before sending money overseas for a used truck. I, for one, am not going to risk a purchase from the import market. I think I would rather buy something "as is" than "restored" (i.e. painted over with color on the sheet metal and black gook on the underside).
This is the route I went with a board member here...PM me if you'd like more info
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  #95  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JG GT3RS View Post
As someone in the market, this thread has served one purpose - think twice before sending money overseas for a used truck. I, for one, am not going to risk a purchase from the import market. I think I would rather buy something "as is" than "restored" (i.e. painted over with color on the sheet metal and black gook on the underside).
It's the devil you know, vs. the devil you don't know. The market here in Canada is different than in the US, import restrictions etc. However, there are similar situations with imported vehicles to the one in question on this thread. I purchased my truck under the condition that nothing be touched. I wanted to see every bit of rust and corrosion, every dent and ding, as well as it would allow me to build in the upgrades of my choice, and know they were done to my level of expectation.

What is good enough to one person, can fall far short of what is acceptable for another. I think that is a big part of how this whole market is becoming "tilted". When it comes to these trucks, there are plenty of "cheap" fixes, and I can't even begin to count the number of times "cheap" "cheaper" "too expensive" "comes into the vocabulary. Seems that we all want the most for the least, and that will always have a cost. There is no way anyone would be able to buy a fully restored Defender for under $75,000. (well, at least to my level of expectation, and that means no Brit Part replacement parts!) Even then, I would doubt that it's fully "restored". Most likely much of the rust and corrosion is repaired, not replaced with new metal. There's an entirely new conversation, restored? Or rebuilt? What are those expectations? We are blinded by Puma hoods and heated seats, and forget about the demanding and boring mechanical side of what needs to be.

So, some BUSINESSES out there (I put that in caps, to emphasize they are a business, and the goal of a business is to generate profit) that see an expanding market of people that have money in hand and want to buy into owning a Defender. As that market becomes more competitive, two things will happen. Quality will go down, as suppliers compete for business, trying to sell on price to bring in more business. The result is becoming more evident as we see more and more short cuts, questionable workmanship and mis-representation (albeit un-intentional [stretching the truth] or outright lying) because we all want cheaper.

Personally, I want to get what I am paying for. It's value for money, what am I actually getting for what I am paying?

Interesting though... ECR with a reputation for being prohibitively expensive, yet has years of work lined up, and I don't recall hearing of an issue with quality or workmanship. The reason is they have an established market, and a reputation for uncompromising quality. To me, they demonstrate the ultimate combination of a sound business operation, and understanding of the product and how to deal with it. It's done right, or it's not done. It costs this, and that's what it is.

I'm not trying to plug his business, I don't have the kind off $$ to afford his services, however on the pages of his website it shows the proper way to do things, expensive, yes, over the top? Well, didn't I say "What is good enough to one person, can fall far short of what is acceptable for another."

At the end of the day, there is a hunger here in the Americas for these vehicles, and no shortage of people willing to take our hard earned money to provide us with that vehicle. There are no shortcuts, buyer beware. It reminds me of a saying "If you think a professional is expensive, just wait to see what an amateur will cost you." rings true...
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  #96  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 12:58 PM
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Well put folks. The Defender and our community here in North America deserve more respect than what has been witnessed lately. Vendors that don't get that shouldn't be allowed to paint something and put shitty diamond stitching everywhere and get away with poor workmanship to boot. We can get that shit here. The European shops have a huge advantage over the U.S. so their work product IMO should be putting the ECR's of the world to shame. Instead we've seen the opposite.
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  #97  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I completely agree that trucks coming in are garbage. What I don't get is how everybody apparently agrees they are too expensive but folks aren't shopping for a beat body with all new mechanicals. That's what my truck has been since day one and nobody wanted to buy it for $18k because it was 50 shades of fade when I moved back to the US.

To SonnyAK, if people keep shopping for shiny paint the dealers will keep on making bank by selling crap. If people aren't buying vehicles with all new drive train and specifics on what components are replaced with new the buyers will keep getting crap. People assume because they spend lots, everything is new. There is close to a $20k mark up on most vehicles that are imported with shiny paint. The ex mods all have a $7k mark up with no mechanical restoration no matter how "nice" they are.

WHEN THIS SITE GROWS UP AND LET'S PEOPLE SHIT ON FOR SALE THREADS THIS COMMUNITY WILL BE BETTER OFF! !! You all bring it on yourselves.
I definitely agree with not buying a truck just because it has nice paint. From what I've seen this truck was advertised as much more than that and from what I've seen the paint even sucks. My point is that for 45k, a ROW truck should be pretty damn nice across the board. Personally I'd either spend more and get an NAS truck that I can lay my eyes on, or buy a beat ROW to bring over expecting to rebuild. Everyone doesn't enjoy ripping these things apart and rebuilding, so sellers are definitely preying on them with the current market.
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  #98  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 01:39 PM
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Dealers (especially), pre-pchse inspectors, mechanics, &, yes, even popular message board members* can lead you astray, cheat you, etc. When it comes to spending $45k on a 25+ year old car, stifling paranoia is your friend. In general, "used car dealer" is a cliche for all things shady & cheesy, but we should trust the ones in Europe?

*not directed @ anyone on Dsource - years ago, I came close to buying what turned out to be a known pig-in-a-poke from a board poohbah on one of the domestic brand 4x4 boards...
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  #99  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 01:45 PM
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Beginning to think there is space for a thread titled, "Dumbest ROW truck buyers and their trucks. " Will H can chose the winner.
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  #100  
Old November 23rd, 2015, 01:45 PM
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After getting burned on a truck close to home, I decided that going to Europe was the way to go. I bought a basically untouched original truck from a dealer (after going to look at it in person) and planned to drive it for a bit then do a restore (which I have done).

The head gasket had a small leak so I had the dealer do the repair and although I was told the timing belt had been done by the previous owner but they couldn't provide documentation so I told them to do that as well. I figured it made sense to have done before I got it home and would allow me to drive it day one.

After about 5000k I took the truck off the road for the tear down I had planned, I figured the one thing I wouldn't have to worry about was re-doing the timing belt, but while I had the engine out I decided what the heck I'll make sure everything's ok and cracked open the case. To my dismay there was black fuzz everywhere, the timing belt while still together was split and fraying. The Crank pulley has a gouge in the lip as well and the logos on the belt were almost none existent from wear. Was the belt defective, improperly installed, or just never done? I guess I'll never know and now I'm left guessing what the next steps are since I don't know what was done.
I would still consider buying out of Europe but I would go see it and have nothing done to it. I just don't know how you can trust anyone to do the work. That being said I would have a hard time trusting many shops over here in Canada, so it's all me now.
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