money money money $$$ :) - Defender Source
Defender Source  

Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old December 19th, 2007, 04:46 PM
Dilks's Avatar
Dilks
Status: Offline
Derek Dilks
1995 Range Rover Classic LWB BB
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Harrisburg, PA, US
Posts: 84
money money money $$$ :)

I moved this thread from the "For Sale" section before it was moved anyway..... This question was for guys over at ECR.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilks
I hear your BR110's are going for over $150k. I was just curious why you don't build more of these? If the market's there why not produce more of them..... TLC is supposed to produce something like 24 Icons this year and they start at $100k and there's a waiting list (I know apples to oranges, but my point is the market and people willing to pay these numbers)

I just wanted to follow up on this post. I know most people on this forum wouldn't pay $150k for a finished product (we'll just end up spending it over time anyway building it ourselves) but what does everyone think about the $150k TLC Icons and ECR BeechRunners selling at this price point. If people with wealth and short attention spans are shelling out this kind of money, I'm surprised more independent shops aren't jumping all over this and doing what ECR is already doing. Or maybe I'm wrong and the margins aren't as huge as I think, and maybe most shops aren't doing, or can't do, the quality work ECR does
__________________
Derek Dilks
95 RRC LWB BB
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old December 20th, 2007, 10:08 AM
ORover's Avatar
ORover
Status: Offline
Fred
NAS 110s #24 and #466
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bend
Posts: 129
I think it costs more than people think to do it right like ECR. It's a lot like building a nice house, for $200 per square foot, you can have a nice house but if you hire someone to build you a house that is without flaw, it's $1,000 per square ft. The real costs are in the small details. A friend of mine who has a large collection of expensive cars would not hesitate to drop $150k on an ECR 110. It would seem cheap compared to most of his cars. Personally, I think NAS 110's are going to become the classic Ferraris for the next generation.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old December 20th, 2007, 10:23 AM
JimC's Avatar
JimC
Status: Offline
Jim Cheney
NAS 110 #145
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 7,154
Registry
One of the big lessons I learned when building the 90 was how estimating works for a big project like that. When you spitball project budgets, you tend to think in terms of the big stuff, and then its all the things in between that add time and cost. Since you dont know what you dont know, you cant help but be bitten by details. I never would have guessed I'd have to have fuel tank skid plate mounting brackets made to mount a NAS tank to a 300Tdi chassis - but I did, and it added a couple hundred to the cost and a few hours to the build.

Bottom line is it costs more than you think to do. The other point is not that people here wouldnt spend 150k on a Rover, its just that we can't. I would do it in a heartbeat if it fit in my real-world budget.
__________________
Jim Cheney

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:01 AM
ECR's Avatar
ECR
Status: Offline
East Coast Rover Co.
Just Defenders, nothing else.
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rockland, ME, USA
Posts: 4,614
Lets talk about what some of you folks do for a living and pick it apart and figure out why what you do for a living actually costs customers money and why you actually bill someone and want to make a profit so that you can pay your mortgage and feed the kids.

I want a 1967 Shelby GT500. I can't afford it. I don't complain. I want a 2008 GT500 too, can't swing that either. So I have a regular 2006 GT that I put a blower on and stuff and now I can keep up with a GT500... good enough for me considering I can't swing the real thing.

Price having a Hemi Cuda restored recently? or an old Corvette? or an old wooden sail boat brought back to new?? or how about restoring an old house by paying someone else to do it??

Seriously, start with an NAS 110 that we have to buy in junk condition for 25-35K. Then tear it apart and replace just about everything and pay mechanics by the hour to do that, pay your insurance, workmen's comp, taxes, etc etc and you get to break even and nothing more.

If you do it yourself and do not bill out your hours, don't have to pay taxes or insurances and all of course it would seem like the trucks are costly. Think business class here folks, not just truck plus a frame and a couple body parts. Those who have done it know the cost of all the small parts, paint, details, etc etc. then add in all the business related costs to that.

I run ECR because it afford me a lifestyle that I like. My own boss, get to play with cool trucks and have fun all day instead of sit behind a desk. It is not a money maker. I do it because I rather do this than something that I would not enjoy that would pay more.

I used to run large private motor yachts. I made huge money. I gave it up because the lifestyle sucked (always on call, always at sea for holidays, no home, no dog, etc.)

If the business model was so staggering in profits then everyone would do it. Only a few hard cores do it and it usually because those guys are looking for a lifestyle not a bottom line.

If it was about making actual money and not breaking even I'd be back on boats.

So what do you do for a living? and I'm not talking to those who just collect a paycheck from someone else, you have no idea. I'm talking to those who run their own business. If you don't or have never run your own business you can not speak to what things truly cost.

There are many ways to make money in this world... restoring cars is not one of them.

Guys like Chip Foose make money, but not on the cars. They make the $$ on endorsements. Jesse James didn't get rich on making bikes, He got rich off endorsements, TV and such.

I get to take my first vacation over Xmas. The last vacation I got to take was when I had back surgery. The one before that was in 1996 when a client took the staff on vacation and his dime.

So yup, all the shop you deal with are rolling in money... gimme a break.
__________________
Email:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I do not check PMs. Call or email if you need something.

ECR is not a parts source. We are not in the mail order business.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:15 AM
Ragland's Avatar
Ragland
Status: Offline
Robert Ragland
1994 Defender 90
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 647
Quick - somebody with time photoshop a Bentley around back of the new ECR shop.
__________________
"Uhh...I think they all leak like that."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:24 AM
ECR's Avatar
ECR
Status: Offline
East Coast Rover Co.
Just Defenders, nothing else.
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rockland, ME, USA
Posts: 4,614


The bummer is I had to sell cars to be able to get the new building... but its an investment in the future so its OK.

Right now I'm driving a 1999 D2 with 247K miles that an angry dog ate the interior out of, but it was only 1000.

Its all oh so glamours making the big bucks!!!
__________________
Email:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I do not check PMs. Call or email if you need something.

ECR is not a parts source. We are not in the mail order business.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:44 AM
rmuller
Status: Offline
Ryan
1966 S2a 88" | 2006 LR3
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Caldwell, NJ
Posts: 1,056
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR

Guys like Chip Foose make money, but not on the cars. They make the $$ on endorsements. Jesse James didn't get rich on making bikes, He got rich off endorsements, TV and such.

I get to take my first vacation over Xmas. The last vacation I got to take was when I had back surgery. The one before that was in 1996 when a client took the staff on vacation and his dime.

So yup, all the shop you deal with are rolling in money... gimme a break.
So, When does the ECR TV show air?!

The one thing that is great though, you managed to turn your hobby into a business that you still love. Most people who do that end up getting tired of their hobby when it becomes work.

Enjoy your vacation and have a merry christmas.
__________________
Ryan
-------------
Current:
1966 Series IIa "Olive"
2001 Discovery II
2006 LR3 HSE7


Past: 1994 Defender 90 #416, 2001 Discovery II
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:50 AM
lrnasd90's Avatar
lrnasd90
Status: Offline
J. Landers
1983 110 LHD Galvanized Everything
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Beaumont, TX USA
Posts: 618
I can confirm Mikes answers in more than one way.

My uncle and I have done frame off restorations on 3 Defenders in the past 3 years. Every time you turn around there is some little item that pops up. Like how do you install a stage 3 Allard Intercooler and an a/c system and get it to all work with a Safari Guard bumper and a Warn 9.5 winch, while still maintaining the stock look of the grille. If we where to keep track of our time on things like this and then think about billing it out for shop rates, it would have cost me thousands. And just the parts themselves with the weak dollar is bad enough, throw in labor cost and I would have just spent $100k myself, as it turns out my last truck cost me just about half that. And that was without labor fees. And a lot of buddy deals. No of which you could get if you where running a business.

And on the other front I am a small business owner, if I get to take off once a year for more than a week I am really happy. We work just about every holiday, even Christmas. Our business is open seven days a week 365 days a year. (I am in the Car wash business) So our busy times are when everyone else is off. Environmental laws change every time you turn the corner, water goes up, natural gas goes up....but you still have to stay competitive. So you are constantly crunching numbers, and hoping (because business is not guaranteed) that everything works it way out in the end. But in the end, I still get to wear shorts to work just about every day and I don't have to shave every morning so there are some up sides to it. And it also nice that we over built our warehouse which gives me space to rebuild my Defender.

My uncle and I have actually thought about opening a small rover restoration shop, but after playing with all the overhead numbers, we figured it would be impossible.

Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Retrofit's Avatar
Retrofit
Status: Offline
Pat
1984 110 CrewCab 200Tdi
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Quebec City, Canada
Posts: 474
Ho yes !

I second every single statement on that list !

And I also think no one should have to justify the price of their work.

Thanks Mike for inspiring most of us with fine craftsmanship and help for our rigs. If someone ever mistakes one of my truck for an ECR one, it will be the best compliment I could ever have. Keep setting the standards higher Mike, I will be trying to keep up.

For my part I am a corporate jet pilot and that is what pays the bills. The shop is more for personal endeavors than a money maker. It pays for itself but it doesn't make its fair share of profits.

Happy holidays everybody !

Pat
__________________
" You never, ever, ever go full retard ! "

Kirk Lazarus, Tropic Thunder


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
color="Red">CanadaOverland.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old December 20th, 2007, 11:54 AM
WhiteD90's Avatar
WhiteD90
Status: Offline
Johnathan Tisdale
93 110, 90 RockRR buggy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR
Lets talk about what some of you folks do for a living and pick it apart and figure out why what you do for a living actually costs customers money and why you actually bill someone and want to make a profit so that you can pay your mortgage and feed the kids.

I want a 1967 Shelby GT500. I can't afford it. I don't complain. I want a 2008 GT500 too, can't swing that either. So I have a regular 2006 GT that I put a blower on and stuff and now I can keep up with a GT500... good enough for me considering I can't swing the real thing.

Price having a Hemi Cuda restored recently? or an old Corvette? or an old wooden sail boat brought back to new?? or how about restoring an old house by paying someone else to do it??

Seriously, start with an NAS 110 that we have to buy in junk condition for 25-35K. Then tear it apart and replace just about everything and pay mechanics by the hour to do that, pay your insurance, workmen's comp, taxes, etc etc and you get to break even and nothing more.

If you do it yourself and do not bill out your hours, don't have to pay taxes or insurances and all of course it would seem like the trucks are costly. Think business class here folks, not just truck plus a frame and a couple body parts. Those who have done it know the cost of all the small parts, paint, details, etc etc. then add in all the business related costs to that.

I run ECR because it afford me a lifestyle that I like. My own boss, get to play with cool trucks and have fun all day instead of sit behind a desk. It is not a money maker. I do it because I rather do this than something that I would not enjoy that would pay more.

I used to run large private motor yachts. I made huge money. I gave it up because the lifestyle sucked (always on call, always at sea for holidays, no home, no dog, etc.)

If the business model was so staggering in profits then everyone would do it. Only a few hard cores do it and it usually because those guys are looking for a lifestyle not a bottom line.

If it was about making actual money and not breaking even I'd be back on boats.

So what do you do for a living? and I'm not talking to those who just collect a paycheck from someone else, you have no idea. I'm talking to those who run their own business. If you don't or have never run your own business you can not speak to what things truly cost.

There are many ways to make money in this world... restoring cars is not one of them.

Guys like Chip Foose make money, but not on the cars. They make the $$ on endorsements. Jesse James didn't get rich on making bikes, He got rich off endorsements, TV and such.

I get to take my first vacation over Xmas. The last vacation I got to take was when I had back surgery. The one before that was in 1996 when a client took the staff on vacation and his dime.


So yup, all the shop you deal with are rolling in money... gimme a break.
Mike-

I personally appreciate what you do for the rover community. I see you doing similar things for the rover owners as the early inventors of LR modifications that so many of us run did, despite the fact that someone is always complaining about how expensive the parts are and surely they could be had cheaper. Maybe so, but then no one would have a lift, 3-link, cool bumper, relocated shocks, toyota axles in a rover housing with stronger gears, the list goes on.

As a consumer and a "business owner" within a company I can appreciate the fact that you get what you pay for.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old December 20th, 2007, 12:10 PM
d90boy's Avatar
d90boy
Status: Offline
keith humphreys
aka: Mr Fancy Pants
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 3,228
Registry
dont worry mike i appreciate your and the teams work!!!


merry christmas
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old December 20th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Ragland's Avatar
Ragland
Status: Offline
Robert Ragland
1994 Defender 90
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECR


The bummer is I had to sell cars to be able to get the new building... but its an investment in the future so its OK.

Its all oh so glamours making the big bucks!!!


Looks like you bought one, too.
Attached Images
 
__________________
"Uhh...I think they all leak like that."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old December 20th, 2007, 12:49 PM
mpsteil
Status: Offline
Michael Steil
NAS 110#23,97 ST#665
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodside,CA, USA
Posts: 675
Mike, out here in CA(Bay Area) my wife and I make our living two ways. She owns a bunch of restaurants with here father so I know where you are coming from on what it takes to run a business. Turning a profit is not somthing that comes easy. For myself I buy homes,remodel and sell. I am not a flipper per say because I will spend up to a year to finish a project. I take my time, buy nothing but the best material inside and out,do the best work I possibly can,and pay as much attention to detail. I have never had a problem selling a house even in this very soft market. Detail is everthing. I dont make a killing but I work when I want to,get to take my kids to school everyday and have total control on how I want things done. People who buy the houses when I am done are not in the know of building or remodeling,they just want a nice house and not want to deal with it. A person who knows how to do the work I do would not spend the money for what I did when they can do it themselves. They would buy the house at the price I did and save a ton of dough. Just like people on this board. They see you prices and dont want to pay that premium. My guess would be most of your costumers are not mechanics or people from this site but people who just want a finished product. Just my thought, MIke
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old December 20th, 2007, 01:16 PM
KevinNY's Avatar
KevinNY
Status: Offline
Kevin Buckley
1973 coiler
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Guilderland,NY
Posts: 1,460
Well myself, I make change for a living. Got a dollar and need 4 quarters? I'm your guy. Need to break a $100 bill, yep, I do that too.

Whats my secret? VOLUME!
__________________
'73 SeriesIII coiler,"The Goat", Daihatsu 2.8TD,Santana,Ashcroft,ARB's,etc., now SOLD
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old December 20th, 2007, 01:43 PM
JimC's Avatar
JimC
Status: Offline
Jim Cheney
NAS 110 #145
Site Team
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 7,154
Registry
Oh yeah, you can loose money on every sale, as long as you make it up in volume.

I grew up in the picture framing business. Thats another one where people think the prices are outrageous and you must be making a mint. No one appreciates that every product that leaves the store was custom-made to order, and that takes time, and we know that time = $$.
__________________
Jim Cheney

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old December 20th, 2007, 01:43 PM
Burke's Avatar
Burke
Status: Offline
Burke Bell
'94 NAS D90 #158
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
Posts: 1,016
Registry
Screw the $ Mike. I envy you because you do what you want to and I bet you enjoy walking in that door just about every morning. That is what it is all about. I am a paycheck collector, but have plans on going into business myself. To me, that is where happiness will be, not just money.
Cheers to you!
__________________
"I race cars, play tennis, and fondle women, BUT! I have weekends off, and I am my own boss." - Arthur
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old December 20th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Emerson00
Status: Offline
Matt J.
None at the moment
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 401
hmmm... I made a comment this morning about winning the lottery in reference to ECR. I have a hard time believing my nobody comments could insite any anger, but if so, my apologies - I meant it as a compliment. Seeing that burned rover get a new frame, sitting there as wheels, frame and engine... that's cool as hell!

I respect it. I work for the family business, run my own in another area, and my wife started her own as well this year. I GET the stress. I haven't slept well since August, and though I bill out at a nice hourly, I don't see much of that. 4 years of busting my butt to sit mostly behind desks these days and my artistic wife has more earnings potential enjoying her job.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old December 20th, 2007, 02:13 PM
revor's Avatar
revor
Status: Offline
Keith Kreutzer
Old beat up 110
D-90 Source Vendor
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Posts: 998
You can't even Imagine what my Biz makes for me!!! Good thing I have a day job to support it
__________________
Keith

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



Big, Red and ... aaa Red..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old December 20th, 2007, 03:04 PM
Mighty's Avatar
Mighty
Status: Offline
mighty
epsom 110 & stornoway 90
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: fl
Posts: 172
Mike (ecr),

in an effort to change the subject...tell us about your life on yachts

100 plus feet, captain?
where abouts did you travel? Where was home dockage?

just curious....

thanks for setting bar so high and doing the best work around!

happy holidays to all!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old December 21st, 2007, 11:50 PM
Dilks's Avatar
Dilks
Status: Offline
Derek Dilks
1995 Range Rover Classic LWB BB
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Harrisburg, PA, US
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpsteil
For myself I buy homes,remodel and sell. I am not a flipper per say because I will spend up to a year to finish a project. I take my time, buy nothing but the best material inside and out,do the best work I possibly can,and pay as much attention to detail. I have never had a problem selling a house even in this very soft market. Detail is everthing. I dont make a killing but I work when I want to,get to take my kids to school everyday and have total control on how I want things done. People who buy the houses when I am done are not in the know of building or remodeling,they just want a nice house and not want to deal with it. A person who knows how to do the work I do would not spend the money for what I did when they can do it themselves. They would buy the house at the price I did and save a ton of dough. Just like people on this board. They see you prices and dont want to pay that premium. My guess would be most of your costumers are not mechanics or people from this site but people who just want a finished product. Just my thought, MIke
I too run my own business and in fact restore historic homes and old buildings for adaptive reuse. Kindof doing for old houses what ECR does for rusted out NAS 110's. So I completely understand the margins. If I didn't have federal and state tax credits to help, I wouldn't make a profit. I'd break even all day. And to my knowledge not many 110 restorations qualify for tax credits I'd personally pay $200k+ for the right rover. I agree these are classics and I don't think we'll ever see them again in the country the way you can buy them new right now in the UK. What a shame. Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Happy Holidays!
__________________
Derek Dilks
95 RRC LWB BB
Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Defender Source > Non-Technical Discussions > Misc. Chit-Chat

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
tailgates for short money @ RN while they last Uncle Douglas The Flea Market 4 January 7th, 2009 04:56 PM
So who else is spending their rover money on . . . evilfij Misc. Chit-Chat 41 December 19th, 2008 07:34 AM
Not LR Related. Money Market Yields... GYM Misc. Chit-Chat 2 December 17th, 2008 04:54 PM
1997 BMW Z3 for sale, possible trade for D90 + $$$ AmityD90 For Sale - Vehicles 17 June 2nd, 2008 10:27 AM
Is it worth my money? JBurt Misc. Chit-Chat 9 February 28th, 2006 12:57 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40 AM.


Copyright