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  #1  
Old May 28th, 2008, 06:44 PM
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Modify a low miles truck--solicitation of opinions

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/159.html

What is the collective wisdom on what this will do to the value of this truck? In general, the low miles original vehicles always seem to bring the most money (muscle cars, porsche etc.). I understand that it is, perhaps, the least valuable style of NAS D90 (5-speed wagon), but how many <10k mile D90s are there left? I can think of maybe 10-12 I have seen in the last 5 years.

Not looking for a fight as much as some thoughts as to the direction of the collector market 10 years down the road. Original or modded worth more? Rust free original chassis or new galvanized? Original engine v tdi v 4.6?

Ron
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  #2  
Old May 28th, 2008, 07:16 PM
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Depends. You have mods which generally de-value the truck. Then you have mods, when done well and to an arbitrary standard, by a "professional" perhaps can add value to the truck. The reality is the value of the truck is dictated by the market. In 10 years, the value of the trucks may be judged by the ability to put those trucks back to stock, or by the rep the "professional" has created around their business. The second thought is a little tricky as each professional, is only doing what the customer wants so they (the modified rig) may be judged unfairly. After all, the truck is not owned by the shop. Inevitably, what you spend at the shop is never going to be re-couped when modifiying the truck.

For this specific truck, the mods aren't particularly invasive to the underlying truck. So I believe it will hold some value if it remains a street queen.
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Old May 28th, 2008, 08:14 PM
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A clean ,low miles D90 sitting in a collectors barn is about as useless and uninspiring to me as tits on a bull.
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  #4  
Old May 28th, 2008, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNY
A clean ,low miles D90 sitting in a collectors barn is about as useless and uninspiring to me as tits on a bull.
So true.


Making changes to a nearly pristine example is no good. It has been my experience that the person willing to pay top dollar for anything typically wants it in unchanged unmolested original condition. I think in general mods do devalue. Of course they may be worth more to some. You have never seen a truck sale for what it was worth in mods etc, Tisdales truck recently comes to mind. Usually whoever makes changes to something really thinks they are good changes and will add value to whatever. In the case of that SW maybe whoever bought it will use it and enjoy. I used to hate to put miles on my truck but now I dont care the more I use it and drive it the more I like at least untill I get my fuel bill. Im sure ECR will do a fine job they think a lot of what they do I have never met anyone that has had them do work and I havent had work done there so I have no idea. Maybe that speedometer cable was unhooked... Also its to bad to see that thing is going to be up there in all that rust.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 12:11 AM
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Anything collectible is worth more in its' original condition (except Stevie Ray Vaughn's guitar). It would be worth more to a collector to find a low miles original condition car than it would a modded truck (unless the mods could be reversed with no damage). In my opinion, the factory add-ons will not hurt the value of the truck either. In fact, some of the factory pieces may add to the value (like the SD Roof rack).
Also, someone paid top dollar to Copely for that truck because it was in pristine condition. Once they do these mods, I seriously doubt they could sell it again and make the same money even if it had the same amount of miles. Any potential buyer will think it has been off-roaded a lot which hurts the value.
A truck in the barn might seem useless to some now, but in 20 years it will be like finding a treasure and it will sell for top dollar.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
[ but how many <10k mile D90s are there left? I can think of maybe 10-12 I have seen in the last 5 years.



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  #7  
Old May 29th, 2008, 10:38 AM
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If there is any similarity with the muscle car market, an untouched original would likely hold the most value. They are only a virgin once.
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  #8  
Old May 29th, 2008, 10:45 AM
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I read this one the other day, and had a bad reaction myself. Wasn't there something about video entertainment in the dash? This Atlantic City Special may not lose value, but the cost of mods will be lost.

It will be another toy that will hit the market again in a few years after the new owner doesn't like the ride, noise, heat, and complains about lack of power. If they don't do anything stupid, like insist on a blower or cut up the body, this can be ripped out. What will be lost forever, though, is the low miles originality - if the smoking hadn't ruined it already.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 11:42 AM
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If you don't like what gets done to low miles trucks then you need to start buying them up and putting them away. If you whine about what others do to their trucks then you missed the most important part of that... its their truck, not yours.
Yes, this truck is a true sub-10K mile truck. We just did valve cover gaskets to it and the insides of the engine are as clean as a new one, the miles are real on this one.
In 95% of our work it is all done so that it can be "undone" without any fuss. All the take out parts on this vehicle could go back in without much fuss and all the original pieces are being retained (other than the stinky carpet) and that was replaced with new genuine carpets, unlike most places we don't drill holes and chop up parts.
We also have a sub 5K mile 1995 SW here as well as a few sub 15K units.

This reminds me of all the dorks that bought up the new Shelby GT-500s and put them in the garage to bring them out in 20 years to make their retirement and that say the cars must be kept for others. What a crock. They are meant to be driven and anyone with good market sense could earn much more in the markets then on sitting on a car in the barn.
My dad watched me taking delivery of one of my new cars years ago. He watched me put in new fancy floor mats, seat covers over the leather, etc etc etc. He looked at me funny and said, "Who are you saving this car for?"
Right there I got what he meant and I now enjoy vehicles.

If you bring me the worst 95 D90 Wagon I can restore it to better than new standards and make it worth far more than any stock one, and make it sell for far more than any stock one with low miles, so the value argument is not correct. If you don't believe that then take a look at our NAS 110 restorations. They sell for double what a stock one could fetch and they are better because many of the original flaws are built out.

If the argument is that low miles examples should be housed in a museum and kept for future generations then we share a very different view of what these trucks are for. In my opinion they are meant to be driven and driven hard, these aren't Duesenbergs... they are Land Rovers.

I see the opposite what you say about stock values. The customers we have buy low miles cars so that they don't have to deal with high miles issues then they immediately make changes. I have yet to have one customer ask me anything about originality. They want what they want. I make it so the work can be easily undone because down the road we may see these cars back and the next owner usually wants something different.

and before you speak about the owner and where he'll be in regards to this truck a few years from now you should know that he is a multiple Rover owner and long time fan. He has a 110 and other Rovers too and we will be building him another 110 down the road as well. He is a Rover fan, not a wanna be.

If you think this work is pissing you off then wait until the next round when it gets a 4.6, lockers, lift and more!!!
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  #10  
Old May 29th, 2008, 11:59 AM
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Fidel/Mike

I think you misunderstand some of this. No one here is of the museum view, from what I can tell.

When seeing someone want this sort of thing (i.e. TVs in the dash), we all got the feeling they really don't know what they have other than they can go throw $100k at a Defender. This truck would be the perfect vehicle for the type owner who like a Rover for what it is, and one they could own for a lifetime. Instead, it looked to be someone's cheap toy for a year or two.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
http://www.eastcoastrover.com/159.html

What is the collective wisdom on what this will do to the value of this truck?

Ron
I think it's one bootylicious all weatha cruisa. Had to put the gizoogle on it. Check it out, dogg:

http://sites.gizoogle.com/index2.php...com%2F159.html

...
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Old May 29th, 2008, 02:52 PM
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I just gizoogled this thread and ECR's post is now hilarious.

Sorry carry on...
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  #13  
Old May 29th, 2008, 09:34 PM
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Like I said, I am not trying to pick a fight, but 10 years hence (when a 1995 D-90 is nearly 25 years old) and a tdi import can be had for a song, I don't think the modded NAS trucks will hold their value nearly as well as a truly original truck (frame/bulkhead/body/interior all stock). Sure now when the average 1993 D110 is a literal flaming POS, an "as new" ECR 110 is worth a lot more, but down the road, can you see that value being retained when the only thing left of the original truck is the cage and a VIN plate. I mean the ECR truck will certainly be worth a good bit of money, but from a buy to lose the least amount of money or make a few bucks, the nice original I think should be worth more.

Maybe I am wrong, but I really just wanted to see what everyone else thought. If I could find a really nice, rust free low miles 1994 (and there have been a few for sale recently for non-silly prices) I think that would be a good investment.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 10:06 PM
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why a 94?

Mike do you strictly do the NAS trucks or do you ever have inquiries from abroad? Are there other people that offer this service in say the UK etc?
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Old May 30th, 2008, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Like I said, I am not trying to pick a fight, but 10 years hence (when a 1995 D-90 is nearly 25 years old) and a tdi import can be had for a song, I don't think the modded NAS trucks will hold their value nearly as well as a truly original truck (frame/bulkhead/body/interior all stock). Sure now when the average 1993 D110 is a literal flaming POS, an "as new" ECR 110 is worth a lot more, but down the road, can you see that value being retained when the only thing left of the original truck is the cage and a VIN plate. I mean the ECR truck will certainly be worth a good bit of money, but from a buy to lose the least amount of money or make a few bucks, the nice original I think should be worth more.

Maybe I am wrong, but I really just wanted to see what everyone else thought. If I could find a really nice, rust free low miles 1994 (and there have been a few for sale recently for non-silly prices) I think that would be a good investment.

Go back 10 years and buy an NAS 110. A low miles beauty would have sold for about 45K-50K. I sold a number of beautiful ones with less than 20K miles in that time period for about that money. In that same time period we were selling ECR 110s built from low miles 90s for over twice that and customers where still having low miles cars brought to us for laundry lists of additional work and changes. Over the years the prices have gone up, but the ratio is roughly the same.

When I say an ECR NAS 110 is worth more than an NAS truck I'm not comparing a POS original NAS 110 to one of ours as you suggest above. I'm comparing apples to apples. A sub 30K mile 110 that was stunning (sat most of its life in a FL airplane hanger and even by my standards was mint) just sold for under 90K out of Copley a week or so ago. A year ago an ECR restored 110 sold for much more.

Another example. A number of years back a we rebuilt a 1995 NAS Wagon (full restoration, galv. frame, new everything, stainless this and that, etc etc). That truck traded hands about 3 years ago for more money than the white 1995 sub 10K mile truck that you started this topic about sold for just a short time ago.

If history is looked at the restored and correctly updated truck beats an original in value (at least with my customers).
Thinking major changes will happen over NEXT ten years going forward is just an unlikely "maybe". It "may" change... but then again my hair "may" grow back too.

The "collector" mentality for Defenders is very very rare. All of my customers plan to drive and use their trucks. None ask me to find them a low miles one to put away (or at least none have asked me for that yet). The bone stock, numbers mathcing, correct paint marked "collector" mindset like the Corvette freaks and Hemi-Cuda guys just doesn't exist in the Defender market (yet), and I personally hope it never does.

1994s sell for far less than 1997s (always have, most likely always will), so 94 would be the worst investment year if history is looked at. I like 95 Wagons myself, but they aren't the "best investment".

A 1994 D90 as a "good investmet" is relative. It might be an investment that you (not me) can feel warm and fuzzy about when you walk by it in your garage, but if "good" is defined as the highest and most favorable return on the initial investment as judged over a set period of time it would be a piss poor one.

I agree with Kevin's thought... a parked investment Defender, or a Defender that "must" be kept with low miles and no upgrades is as useless as tits on a bull. We'll all be worm food soon... drive the truck like you stole it and enjoy it. If your enjoyment comes from looking at your low miles odometer... drive the truck anyway and periodically buy a new speedo so that you can jerk off to the low odometer reading.



Follow-up Post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4
Mike do you strictly do the NAS trucks or do you ever have inquiries from abroad?
We do whatever the customer wants to whatever he/she has. There are no restrictions here other than it needs to be a Defender or mostly a Defender.
We work on non NAS Defenders but because the DOT frequents the ECR site I no longer post the "iffy" trucks on line. There are a few non NAS Defender projects on the site from years ago. The majority are NAS though. As more early ones get imported legally that will likely change a little. We already have a number of LHD conversions and such on the books to do from folks who imported or bought imported RHD early 110s.

We have done trucks for customers all over the world from Germany, Japan, Bahamas, Carib. islands, etc. 99.9% US though. You can find all those on the site though... this sounds like a sales pitch... I'm stopping now.
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  #16  
Old May 30th, 2008, 12:56 AM
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Ha!

I always enjoy reading your answers Mike.

I think I am just watching this as the development of a collector car market. When the hemis and 63-67 vettes first came out, they were modded and everyone wanted a modded car because they were planning on dragging it or just plain driving it. Then, as time went by, people started doing crazy things like look at the engine numbers and make sure it had date coded wheels. Same thing with early porsches--how many long hooded early 911s ended up with upgraded interiors, whale tails and fender flares in the 1980s and now people give 25k for a 911S title and rusty shell.

Who knows? Maybe the BR110s will be the yenko cameros of the next generation.

Personally, I learned my lesson with defenders, I don't drive them much. During the four years or so I owned a D90 I put about 6,000 miles on (from memory--about 4k on one in two and half years on one and 2k on the other one in 18 months or so--this discounts the 3200 in several days in Janey). For me, there is nothing prohibitive to my enjoyment in limiting my miles. At least 5 years ago when I was in the biz, it seemed that a lot of owners were similar to me. Every year I would see the same trucks come in. A couple thou more on the odometer, service it, put some new inspection stickers on it and replace the battery.

On the 1997 as opposed to 94/95, I think that is a function of the driver v. collector market. Most people seem to want an auto so demand is greater on the 1997, of course auto vettes commanded a premium way back when too.

Me, I am still looking for either the laser red or java green hella edition 1994s.

Ron

PS And if I want to jerk off to a low miles odometer I can wander over to the garage and look at the SII. 43,000 miles in 49 years . . . about 1000 of which I am responsible for in the last 9 years or wander down to visit steve and look at the 6,000 mile SIII.
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Old May 30th, 2008, 09:16 AM
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Although my D90 is not really ďmoded-outĒ, all my mods can be undone for two reasons: 1) I canít bring myself to cut/drill into a vehicle so rare, 2) someday I may want to remove the mods. I think that some chequer plating looks good, however I canít bring myself to drill into the body.



The PO of my D90 did a p!ss-poor job on wiring the stereo head unit to the amp. I spent an entire day replacing the spaghetti-wiring and with a volt meter and a soldiering gun, you would never know is was ever touched. Granted, itís not something that can be seen easily, but I want it done right and to look correct. The oil pressure/volt meter gages I installed look factory IMO (my write-up is in the small project section). Iím one of those owners that pampers their vehicles and I plan on keeping my D90 for a long time.



I get most of my ideas from ECRís website. Their documentation is great and their work is incredible. They ďdo it rightĒ all the way done to small details like separating dissimilar materials with gaskets. As far as modifying/converting a low mile D90 into a D110 or whatever, I would rather take a tired D90 and give it a new life, but thatís just me, to each their own.





I would say that Defender owners are of a different breed. My dad has a 1932 Ford model A hot rod. Loads of chrome, enough HP and torque to give you whiplash, glass packs, and it sh!ts and gits. We go to car shows often. These types of owners are mostly into HP and looks, which is cool. IMO, Defender owners are mostly into functionality not bling. The truck is unique as stock, it doesnít need anything to separate itself from the others.

Cheers...
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Old May 30th, 2008, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grover
Although my D90 is not really ďmoded-outĒ, all my mods can be undone for two reasons: 1) I canít bring myself to cut/drill into a vehicle so rare, 2) someday I may want to remove the mods. I think that some chequer plating looks good, however I canít bring myself to drill into the body.


I was all "kid glove" with my NAS 110 for the first two years I had it, not going up V ditches because it might get dented, not installing a snorkle because I was afraid to drill holes in it. I was even leary to do the things I wanted to do because it might "ruin the value". Eventually I considered selling it so that I could buy a D90 that I could modify without concern and then it hit me that I was being stupid and I was wasting my favorite vehicle in the world.

Since that time I have gotten stuck in many new places, I drive it almost every day and I ripped the drivers side eyebrow off and put a solid four foot long scrape down the side of the rock slider and you know what, it looks better because I put that ding there. I don't care what the resale value is any more it is a 15 year old 4x4 and it is going to get used and abused by me and if I am lucky by no one else.

I see these $60K+ Defenders being sold and it makes me bewildered to think that a British farm truck has become the "beaujolais nouveau" of the offroad world.

I have come to the realization that the hours we spend idolizing the 110 in British Rover mags and the hours of debate we do online are really just a waste of time.

The 110 is an underpowered, leaky, drippy, poorly built, barrel of fun and it will never be a Porsche or a Ferrari and they do not deserve or enjoy that type of pedestal top adoration. They are best when used hard, frequently muddy, dented and repaired on the trail with duct tape and rope.

Remember your Land Rover in the UK carries as much prestige as a beat up old 93 Chevy pickup. This is not to undersell the fine work of the ECR boys in any way. I love their site and have learned alot from their expertise, I appreciate good workmanship and as Fidel said "Drive it like you stole it".
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Old May 30th, 2008, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
The 110 is an underpowered, leaky, drippy, poorly built, barrel of fun and it will never be a Porsche or a Ferrari and they do not deserve or enjoy that type of pedestal top adoration. They are best when used hard, frequently muddy, dented and repaired on the trail with duct tape and rope.
Wow. I respect your choice to use your truck as you wish, but I certainly do not share your opinion.
Different strokes, I guess. It's all good...
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Old May 30th, 2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GYM
Wow. I respect your choice to use your truck as you wish, but I certainly do not share your opinion.
Different strokes, I guess. It's all good...
Seriously, would you rate a Defender as being comfortable? You got bad seats, no leg room and the sitting position is back and butt numbing after more than a couple of hours.

I love my Land Rovers, I have three for pete's sake but lets not fool ourselves.

When I go to a club event many attendees are lucky to get there without having issues. They are unreliable, the British have no concept of the art of making mild steel. The electrics are hideous and the parts are expensive.

What I am saying is that these vehicles are great but they are not deserving of sainthood. They have character, they make us earn the use we get out of them. I will not drive anything else but let's be realistic.
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