Malaysian MH-17 - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:10 AM
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Malaysian MH-17

For proof that a missile took down MH17, these pictures look conclusive to me:
From the link,
A pieces of wreckage from the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 that was shot down in eastern Ukraine last week bears marks of small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel that apparently crippled the jet in flight. Riddled with these perforations and buffeted by a blast wave as it flew high above the conflict zone, the plane then most likely sheared apart.. Damage is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an Buk missile system.
Sorry, typo on the title. Josh, can you please update?
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  #2  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:28 AM
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Looks consistent with damage typically seen from a frag warhead SAM. Interesting to see it so close to the leading edge of the A/C. Usually we see it closer to the center of the A/C near the engines.

As sad as it sounds, we rarely get to see the SA-11 in action, let alone the effects of an impact.
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  #3  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:43 AM
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From these photos, it appears the trajectory of the frag was essentially parallel with MH17's angle of attack. As if the frag skipped off the wing skin as it punched through the fuselage at the flightdeck.




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  #4  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 10:52 AM
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Doesn't skip and function on impact, it functions in proximity to an A/C to spread shrapnel over a larger area. Although from those schematics it looks like it "missed" it's initial intended point of impact.
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  #5  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 11:14 AM
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Understand the detonation on proximity. By skipped, meant that the frag's direction was essentially so parallel to the flight path (attitude, not bearing) it more or less tore the wing skin ruling out detonation from much above or below. It detonated right at the plane's altitude.
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  #6  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 01:27 PM
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A civilian plane has no chance against an SA-11 and its associated ground station and radars.

There's no EW hardware on a civilian plane, no way to tell its being lit on X-band, no way to detect active seekers. There's no power to quickly climb out of range. A civilian aircraft is essentially a stationary target against a SAM. Once the missile is fired, it's hard to consider a situation where it would miss its target.

(I've only designed and tested GBR C4ISR systems with SAMs, and have never seen anything fired live. I've never seen actual SAM intercepts and/or damaged aircraft. I have no idea how to evaluate whether or not a SAM was used to take down an aircraft.)

I find it sad that people are asking questions about how to make civilian aircraft resistant to SAM or Man Pad attack. The solution is simple: Don't fly over war zones. One could theoretically reduce far-field radar signature of the civilian aircraft to nothing, but it's still going to have to squawk SIF codes, making it susceptible to passive detection. A fighter with a 20mm gun could tear the plane to shreds within minutes. This whole tragedy could have been avoided if they would have just avoided contested airspace. It's a big "duh" to me.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 01:28 PM
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So now we have another Crimean War, only this time instead of the charge of the Light Brigade, it's the surface to air attack by the Russians. One of my co-workers who is Dutch has a cousin who lost his wife and 3 daughters who were flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur where he was going to join them. So what do the Russian Separatists do in a released propaganda film after they shoot down the plane, reach in the pile and pick up the passport of my friends cousin's daughter, Sophile Charlotte Van der Meer. So now this 12 year old who perished is all over the internet for the family to witness. Makes you want to volunteer for the Ukrainian army to help them fight the Russians.

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  #8  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 01:32 PM
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I've seen a lot MANPAD hits on military A/C that do have IRCM and chaff systems. Those pictures look very consistent with a missile hit.
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  #9  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
Doesn't skip and function on impact, it functions in proximity to an A/C to spread shrapnel over a larger area. Although from those schematics it looks like it "missed" it's initial intended point of impact.
It's RUSSIAN.
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  #10  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrichmanitoba View Post
It's RUSSIAN.
What does that mean? 95% of all historical A/C shoot downs post WWII are with Russian/Soviet SAM, MANPAD, and AAA systems.
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  #11  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Fabrication View Post
What does that mean? 95% of all historical A/C shoot downs post WWII are with Russian/Soviet SAM, MANPAD, and AAA systems.
It means: IT'S RUSSIAN
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  #12  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrichmanitoba View Post
It means: IT'S RUSSIAN
A lot of the Russian stuff is very good gear. Their anti aircraft artillery is very lethal.
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  #13  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:38 PM
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Nothing came close to Germany's eighty-eight in WWII.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armyrover View Post
a lot of the russian stuff is very good gear. Their anti aircraft artillery is very lethal.
wrong

------ Follow up post added July 22nd, 2014 08:47 PM ------

Putin agrees:

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  #15  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrichmanitoba View Post
wrong ------ Follow up post added July 22nd, 2014 08:47 PM ------ Putin agrees:
Um, ok chief. What do we know.

The SA-10/20 series isn't a game changer if proliferated

The ZSU-23/4 isn't still a wickedly good self propelled AAA piece against low/slow tgts...
...nor is the 2S6 a worthy successor that has both cannon and missiles.

The SA-24 also didn't drive stay above's in recent conflicts either...

Bc they are all Russian junk.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 08:56 PM
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Bc they are all Russian junk.
YES. You are correct!
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  #17  
Old July 22nd, 2014, 09:00 PM
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I am pretty sure the warhead the SA-11 class of area defense battlefield missiles uses what is called a continuous-rod warhead. Its very similar to our Standard SM1/-2 naval missiles. It is essentially a bundle of steel rods fused together around a high explosive center in such a way that when the missiles point of intercept detects proximity to the target, either ahead, astern, under or above the missiles detonates. The blast pattern throws out thousands of short sections of rebar-like sections which produce a ball of rods that create a shotgun effect that goes in every direction. That's why it looks like Swiss cheese. The rods go through every thing. The immediate effect is to detonate fuel tanks and cause immediate structural disintegration. The US did the exact same thing in 1988 to Iran Air 655 but that was a mis-identification based on a naval battle with small boats. Russia supplied that launcher and air surveillance to destroy high flying transports and so they should burn for it.
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  #18  
Old July 23rd, 2014, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray_G View Post
Um, ok chief. What do we know. The SA-10/20 series isn't a game changer if proliferated The ZSU-23/4 isn't still a wickedly good self propelled AAA piece against low/slow tgts... ...nor is the 2S6 a worthy successor that has both cannon and missiles. The SA-24 also didn't drive stay above's in recent conflicts either... Bc they are all Russian junk.
Not everything the Russians make or have in their possession is junk. You've never gotten up close and personal to an MI-24 Super Hind.
And what about those Kamaz and Tatra trucks?
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  #19  
Old July 23rd, 2014, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LuisC View Post
Not everything the Russians make or have in their possession is junk. You've never gotten up close and personal to an MI-24 Super Hind. And what about those Kamaz and Tatra trucks?
The sarcasm font must not have been coming through. I have a healthy respect for some Russian hardware that has been earned on the wrong side of it, thankfully not on the wrong side of a Mi-24 though.

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  #20  
Old July 23rd, 2014, 07:54 AM
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Thanks for posting the live leak link. I'd been puzzled why so many pictures showed clear evidence of straight cuts. Now we know why. Rebels were trying to sanitize the evidence by removing shrapnel type damage.
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