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  #21  
Old May 16th, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
What scares me is no quality sensor and no dipstick! I can get the car properly warmed up on level ground and faf around with buttons on a stalk for a few minutes to then get the level, but nothing else. I guess it's too hard to grab a rag, pop the hood and check it?

I dunno, maybe by making it a sealed system they can get away with longer intervals between oil changes. Seems to me you could make a screw in dipstick if that was the case.
How do you check the oil level when filling, or if burning/leaking later in life? Idiot lights only?
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  #22  
Old May 16th, 2013, 09:19 AM
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I don't know where that Service Schedule comes from, but Land Rover recommends Oil & Filter Changes once a year or 15k miles. As a dealership we recommend changing the filter in between and include a free Filter Change and Top-Off Service at 6mos/7500 and 18mos/22,500 for our customers.

Brake Fluid Flush is part of the 3yr/45k Service

I see Brakes and Tires last a very wide range of time depending on how people tend to drive. I've seen someone tear through a set of rear pads in 8k miles and I've seen others last for 40k. It all depends on the driving style. Same with Fuel Economy, some people avg. 8mpg in a S/C Sport, others avg 18mpg...

I haven't seen excessive tire wear or need for alignments in a long time. The early LR3s were prone to it, particularly '05 when LR mis-aligned the rears from the factory and assisted people with the cost to repair prematurely worn tires.

With respect to oil, I recall years ago when Synthetic first became popular, that one of the oil companies (may have been amsoil) did a test running two engines, one with Synthetic for 15k with a filter change at 7,500 and one with Dino Oil for 3k. When the oils were tested, the Dino was more broken down after 3k than the synthetic at 15k! With that in mind, I wouldn't worry about the 15k Interval at all. I personally drive an '06 which I've swapped to Synthetic and also run it for 15k. It certainly won't hurt anything but your wallet to change it more frequently, but it isn't necessary.

------ Follow up post added May 16th, 2013 08:23 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
How do you check the oil level when filling, or if burning/leaking later in life? Idiot lights only?
There is a Service Menu on the dash that allows you to check it electronically. Personally, I'm with you, I'd love to see the dipstick make a comeback, particularly since the early LR4 (not sure about the latest) have no idiot light to warn you. We had a customer with a seized engine because he took it to another dealer for an oil change who drained it, put a new filter on and forgot to refill!

No warning at all, just seized up while driving! I'm guessing the new ones have a warning light as I know the '13 RR does.
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  #23  
Old May 16th, 2013, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by geoellis View Post
Not a good idea? How are you so certain? First of all, we're talking 15k and not 20k, so as it pertains to mine it's due for a third oil change. No one will argue that changing the oil sooner is a bad idea, but I see no need to adhere to old maintenance ideas on newly engineered vehicles. If LR says 15k, then I'm good with that, as long as their recommended materials are used. Deviate from that and it's a different story unless you match specs.
Listen, you certainly don't have to take my word for it - and I'm not trying to get in a pissing match - but 15K interval with no filter change will scare any competent mechanic. Don't take my word for it, ask around. These "newly engineered vehicles"....they're still running oil as the primary lubricant. It's not like your LR4 is putting out 1.21 gigawatts here, Marty .

Oil gets dirty. Oil needs to be changed. Filters need to be changed. Especially the tiny-ass filter on the LR3/LR4...are you saying that does not clog up in 15K and is some sort of state-of-the-art / cutting-edge technology inside of that filter? It's a filter...probably not different than what I run in my 1971 Series IIA. Oh wait, they are almost exactly the same (because I switched over to the spin-on adapter kit). And my Series gets changed every 3K. I'm also *fairly* certain that LR does recommend a filter change in that 15K interval, though I have not verified that (but you may want to if you plan on keeping the vehicle).

As far as how I'm certain...this comes from a family that owns repair shop, and works on everything from classic Mopar to brand new Land Rovers.
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  #24  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:00 AM
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Good stuff. Ive been wondering what the cost of ownership of an LR3/4 would be. Price points are really dropping. I love the look and size but little concerned the maintenance would bum me out.

How do the inertiors hold up? The 02-07ish Ranges look like shit half the time.

Clay
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  #25  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:22 AM
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My '05 LR3 is pushing 150,000 miles, and I drive the crap out of the thing, on and off road.

I have had the uneven tire wear, which Land Rover did *not* want to admit was hapenning to all of us, and now at least here in California is the subject of a class action law suit.

I run Castrol Syntec in mine pretty much from day 1 and change it between 5k and 7.5k miles.

Brakes haven't been too bad, even with SoCal driving and my truck's heavier weight due to a bull bar, winch, rack, sliders, etc, I easily get 30,000 miles out of them.

Interior wise... the trouble spots are the steering wheel airbag cover which is a known issue, it curls up from the back. The armrest on the driver's seat is showing its age, and just very recently the passenger front airbag cover started to crack along the opening on the dash. Otherwise the rest of the interior is holding up pretty well, considering how I treat it, and it's always parked outside in the San Diego sun.
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  #26  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin View Post
Just curious what real world maintenance numbers you guys are seeing on your LR4s.

1. How many miles before needing brake pads replaced (front and/or rear) and what your dealer charges
2. How many miles before needing rotors replaced (front and/or rear) and what your dealer charges
3. How many miles between alignments
4. How many miles/months before brake fluid needs flushing/replacing and what your dealer charges
5. How many miles/months before power steering fluid needs flushing/replacing and what your dealer charges
I'm a technician at a Land Rover dealer. Brakes and tires last anywhere between 20k and 40k miles. If I owned one I would do an alignment every year, the specs are very tight and they come out of alignment very easily. We have zero hydraulic problems, so I would stick to the factory interval of 45k miles for brake fluid. Unless you can hear a slight squeaking from your power steering system, you probably don't need to worry about the power steering fluid.

Service writers usually get some form of kickback from selling flushes and things like that from the company that supplies the fluids (BG, MOC, Winn, ect.), so I wouldn't trust them when they try to sell it to you. I would suggest changing the diff fluid and flushing the coolant on a regular basis, since Land Rovers interval is 10 years regardless of mileage IIRC. I Also would not let anyone other than the dealer, or a good independent Land Rover shop do the alignments or replace the rear brake rotors. It is also essential that the correct motor oil is used.

------ Follow up post added May 16th, 2013 10:41 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
Listen, you certainly don't have to take my word for it - and I'm not trying to get in a pissing match - but 15K interval with no filter change will scare any competent mechanic. Don't take my word for it, ask around. These "newly engineered vehicles"....they're still running oil as the primary lubricant. It's not like your LR4 is putting out 1.21 gigawatts here, Marty .

Oil gets dirty. Oil needs to be changed. Filters need to be changed. Especially the tiny-ass filter on the LR3/LR4...are you saying that does not clog up in 15K and is some sort of state-of-the-art / cutting-edge technology inside of that filter? It's a filter...probably not different than what I run in my 1971 Series IIA. Oh wait, they are almost exactly the same (because I switched over to the spin-on adapter kit). And my Series gets changed every 3K. I'm also *fairly* certain that LR does recommend a filter change in that 15K interval, though I have not verified that (but you may want to if you plan on keeping the vehicle).

As far as how I'm certain...this comes from a family that owns repair shop, and works on everything from classic Mopar to brand new Land Rovers.
FYI the 5.0L motor uses a cartridge style filter and synthetic oil. I've seen these motors apart with over 50k miles and they look brand new following the factory service interval. The rest of the car will wear out before the motor does.
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  #27  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
FYI the 5.0L motor uses a cartridge style filter and synthetic oil. I've seen these motors apart with over 50k miles and they look brand new following the factory service interval. The rest of the car will wear out before the motor does.
So why did you have the motor apart ?

Just kidding...but do you know if LR recommends a filter change in between that 15k interval?
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  #28  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
Listen, you certainly don't have to take my word for it - and I'm not trying to get in a pissing match - but 15K interval with no filter change will scare any competent mechanic. Don't take my word for it, ask around. These "newly engineered vehicles"....they're still running oil as the primary lubricant. It's not like your LR4 is putting out 1.21 gigawatts here, Marty .

Oil gets dirty. Oil needs to be changed. Filters need to be changed. Especially the tiny-ass filter on the LR3/LR4...are you saying that does not clog up in 15K and is some sort of state-of-the-art / cutting-edge technology inside of that filter? It's a filter...probably not different than what I run in my 1971 Series IIA. Oh wait, they are almost exactly the same (because I switched over to the spin-on adapter kit). And my Series gets changed every 3K. I'm also *fairly* certain that LR does recommend a filter change in that 15K interval, though I have not verified that (but you may want to if you plan on keeping the vehicle).

As far as how I'm certain...this comes from a family that owns repair shop, and works on everything from classic Mopar to brand new Land Rovers.

Ha ha ha. No pissing match, ok. I hear you and I do appreciate your intentions, but it's not my first rodeo. I've driven cars to over 300k, currently have 2 with over 150k, too many marine engines at the moment, blah blah. I've always followed the manufacturers (engineers, not service techs) recommended change schedule and haven't lost an engine yet. Perhaps this LR4 (not to be confused with the LR3, because it is different) will be the first to blow, but I like my chances.
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  #29  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
If I owned one I would do an alignment every year, the specs are very tight and they come out of alignment very easily.
What is the cause of the alignment issues and the need for annual alignments? This sounds crazy, like LR is hiding an inherent design issue with the LR3/4.

For example, I have a 2005 4Runner with 105,000 miles on the clock that has never been on a rack. The OEM Dunlops lasted 43k miles, first set of Michelins (the SUV version Costco sells) lasted over 50k, and now running another set of Michelins. All of the tires looked great. No cupping, shoulder wear, etc. My E46 has never been on a rack for the ~ 5yrs and 55k miles I've owned it. Tire wear has been perfect. Also owned a 1996 Isuzu Trooper for 10 years. Never been on a rack. Nor had a 1998 Audi A4 for the 5 years I had it.
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  #30  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
What is the cause of the alignment issues and the need for annual alignments? This sounds crazy, like LR is hiding an inherent design issue with the LR3/4.

For example, I have a 2005 4Runner with 105,000 miles on the clock that has NEVER been on a rack. The OEM Dunlops lasted 43k miles, first set of Michelins (the SUV version Costco sells) lasted over 50k, and now running another set of Michelins. All of the tires looked great. No cupping, shoulder wear, etc.

My E46 has NEVER been on a rack for the ~ 5yrs and 55k miles I've owned it. Tire wear has been perfect.

Driving both includes few miles of daily driving on a rutted and pot hole lined gravel road -- sometimes causing bent rims on the E46.
All-wheel drives like to be aligned on a regular basis, had the same issue with our Audi and did it as well annually...tires aren't cheap these days so it's best to avoid uneven wear.

Is the 4runner AWD?
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  #31  
Old May 16th, 2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
All-wheel drives like to be aligned on a regular basis, had the same issue with our Audi and did it as well annually...tires aren't cheap these days so it's best to avoid uneven wear.

Is the 4runner AWD?
4Runner and Trooper are/were 4x4s and the Audi was a Quattro. Two of them actually. No problems with uneven tire wear.

To me, alignments are overblown and a good source of profit by the shops, like oil changes every 3k on newer cars.

Keep tires at the proper inflation and do a crisscross rotation with every oil change.
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  #32  
Old May 16th, 2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
4Runner and Trooper are/were 4x4s and the Audi was a Quattro. Two of them actually. No problems with uneven tire wear.

To me, alignments are overblown and a good source of profit by the shops, like oil changes every 3k on newer cars.

Keep tires at the proper inflation and do a crisscross rotation with every oil change.
Our Audi allroad was a bear to keep aligned, though admittedly that could be because the wife drove it like it was a rally car. But I think a part-time 4-wheel (like the 4runner & Trooper) are different than the AWD things like the quattro.

Now all that said haven't done an alignment on the LR3 in 2 years.
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  #33  
Old May 16th, 2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
So why did you have the motor apart ?

Just kidding...but do you know if LR recommends a filter change in between that 15k interval?
Haha, valid point. It was a mysterious coolant leak. We did a headgasket, and eventually put a long block in it. A field service engineer was involved with that one. That's the only 5.0 we've replaced. We have had some issues with timing chain tensionors though. On a side note, I've seen the M62 BMW motor that is in 03-05 RR's and if the 15k service interval is followed they look pretty clean. I've also seen them completely caked with sludge, but not causing any problems. When I say completely caked, I mean you take the cam cover off, and it is almost completely filled with sludge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift View Post
What is the cause of the alignment issues and the need for annual alignments? This sounds crazy, like LR is hiding an inherent design issue with the LR3/4.

For example, I have a 2005 4Runner with 105,000 miles on the clock that has never been on a rack. The OEM Dunlops lasted 43k miles, first set of Michelins (the SUV version Costco sells) lasted over 50k, and now running another set of Michelins. All of the tires looked great. No cupping, shoulder wear, etc. My E46 has never been on a rack for the ~ 5yrs and 55k miles I've owned it. Tire wear has been perfect. Also owned a 1996 Isuzu Trooper for 10 years. Never been on a rack. Nor had a 1998 Audi A4 for the 5 years I had it.
First of all, If I owned one I would do an alignment with every oil change, but I'm a tech, so its just labour.

Comparing it to a Toyota is apples to oranges. An LR4 is probably much heavier, and is permanently in four wheel drive. I've never worked on anything other than Land Rovers and Jaguars, so I don't know anything about the suspension systems of a Toyota. For example, LR2's never seem to be out of spec, but they are much lighter, and pretty much front wheel drive, so tires last longer and alignments are rarely needed.

If you own an LR3/4 or a RRS, and want your tires to last, I would recommend and tire balance, tire rotation, and alignment every year or 15k miles.

------ Follow up post added May 16th, 2013 11:27 AM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanwind View Post
So why did you have the motor apart ?

Just kidding...but do you know if LR recommends a filter change in between that 15k interval?
Your inner tie rod ends have lasted that long?!
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  #34  
Old May 16th, 2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post

I'm a technician at a Land Rover dealer. Brakes and tires last anywhere between 20k and 40k miles. If I owned one I would do an alignment every year, the specs are very tight and they come out of alignment very easily. We have zero hydraulic problems, so I would stick to the factory interval of 45k miles for brake fluid. Unless you can hear a slight squeaking from your power steering system, you probably don't need to worry about the power steering fluid.

Service writers usually get some form of kickback from selling flushes and things like that from the company that supplies the fluids (BG, MOC, Winn, ect.), so I wouldn't trust them when they try to sell it to you. I would suggest changing the diff fluid and flushing the coolant on a regular basis, since Land Rovers interval is 10 years regardless of mileage IIRC. I Also would not let anyone other than the dealer, or a good independent Land Rover shop do the alignments or replace the rear brake rotors. It is also essential that the correct motor oil is used.

------ Follow up post added May 16th, 2013 10:41 AM ------

FYI the 5.0L motor uses a cartridge style filter and synthetic oil. I've seen these motors apart with over 50k miles and they look brand new following the factory service interval. The rest of the car will wear out before the motor does.
Is the a LR4 year you would steer away from or one your favor, mechanically?
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  #35  
Old May 16th, 2013, 06:09 PM
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Is the a LR4 year you would steer away from or one your favor, mechanically?
I would choose an LR4 over an LR3 mainly just because its newer. I've seen a few with high mileage, but its hard to tell when they aren't that old. From a driver's perspective, the LR4 is way ahead of the LR3 in terms of luxury and power. I haven't seen any control arm bushing failures on LR4's for example, but with that style bushing I'm sure we'll start seeing those in the next couple of years. The AMK air suspension compressor is better than the Hitachi that is fitted to LR3's and maybe early LR4's.

The Jag 4.4L is pretty bulletproof. I've seen them pretty badly overheated and they handle it well. With over 200k they usually don't leak a drop of oil, and the coolant leaks are pretty cheap to fix, even at the dealer.

The Jag 5.0L is way more powerful and seems to be pretty reliable, with the exception of the timing chain tensioner failures. We don't really see any oil leaks on these either, but the water pumps are total shit. Land Rover has followed suit with Toyota and will not replace the water pump under warranty unless the coolant level is low enough in the reservoir to set off the low coolant light, or the bearing has completely failed. Coolant spatter on the belts and around the water pump is not enough to replace it under warranty. We two previous Toyota techs working in our shop now, and they say that Toyota is the same way and their water pumps are shit too.

Overall the newer Rovers are great vehicle is terms of build quality, especially compared to the old stuff.
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  #36  
Old May 16th, 2013, 07:17 PM
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Define old stuff
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  #37  
Old May 16th, 2013, 07:19 PM
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Define old stuff
Pre T-5 Chassis trucks and Jag powered RR. So pre 2005.
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  #38  
Old May 16th, 2013, 07:56 PM
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Define old stuff
Disco 1/2, P38, RRC, and now I'd also include 03-05 RR because those are turing into real piles of poo. I won't even include Freelanders...

'06 and up is a good rule of thumb when purchasing a Land Rover. The way I look at it is that you could get in just about any Land Rover built after '06 and drive it across the country without ever opening the hood or even checking the vehicle over. I don't even like driving most of the 03-05 RR's we see at the dealership around the block.
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  #39  
Old May 16th, 2013, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jymmiejamz View Post
The Jag 5.0L is way more powerful and seems to be pretty reliable, with the exception of the timing chain tensioner failures. We don't really see any oil leaks on these either, but the water pumps are total shit. Land Rover has followed suit with Toyota and will not replace the water pump under warranty unless the coolant level is low enough in the reservoir to set off the low coolant light, or the bearing has completely failed. Coolant spatter on the belts and around the water pump is not enough to replace it under warranty.
If it's any indication, mine has been replaced.
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  #40  
Old May 17th, 2013, 06:40 AM
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I would really really like an LR4, its nice they have stepped up the quality. That being said with the "modern" technology and engineeering capabilities car manufacturers should be making cars that never break.

All the new vehicles without dipsticks drive me crazy, I wont get started on transmissions.
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