Low Sulfur Diesel Question - Defender Source
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  #1  
Old June 28th, 2007, 11:37 AM
DaveG
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Low Sulfur Diesel Question

So, I've looked through some old threads about this, but i'm more confused now then before!

Question: will the new low sulfur diesel be bad for my 300tdi in the long term? Should I add something on a regular basis? From what I understand the new diesel has less lubrication attributes then the old...?
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  #2  
Old June 28th, 2007, 12:04 PM
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mark kellgren
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I put diesel treatment in once a week/every other week to be safe. A quart is good for about 4 tanks. I also understand that biodiesel offers excellent lubricity, and if you mix in a tank of biodiesel from occasionally, your system will stay clean and happy. biodiesel is an alternative to diesel treatment, you shouldn't need both.

this is the direction I'm getting from others, and not my own SME'ness.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 12:10 PM
DaveG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander
I put diesel treatment in once a week/every other week to be safe. A quart is good for about 4 tanks. I also understand that biodiesel offers excellent lubricity, and if you mix in a tank of biodiesel from occasionally, your system will stay clean and happy. biodiesel is an alternative to diesel treatment, you shouldn't need both.

this is the direction I'm getting from others, and not my own SME'ness.
I also heard that if you drop a gallon of offroad diesel or home heating oil (#2?) it does the same.... adds some lubrication. I'd love to get my hands on some bio but it's really not readily available in my area. I should look again.
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  #4  
Old June 28th, 2007, 12:51 PM
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Assuming you purchase the diesel from a reputable source, it should already contain adeqauet lubricity additives. It can't hurt to be safe and add your own. Powerservice is cheap, easy to find and has all the right stuff.

And BTW, it is Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. We have had Low Sulfur Diesel for many years.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 01:18 PM
DaveG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90
Assuming you purchase the diesel from a reputable source, it should already contain adeqauet lubricity additives. It can't hurt to be safe and add your own. Powerservice is cheap, easy to find and has all the right stuff.

And BTW, it is Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. We have had Low Sulfur Diesel for many years.

Ahh, yes... Ultra Low.... my bad. That's what I thought..... but I just filed up at a oil company and there was a very large sign saying that the ultra low sulfur diesel was harmful to vehicles older then 2007...?
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Old June 28th, 2007, 01:35 PM
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I find that hard to believe. I think it's a scare tactic to keep everyone in the fed box.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 03:08 PM
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Both Canada and the US mandate a lubricity requirement for the fuel which has been in effect for a few years. As long as the oil refiner meets these requirements, the lubricity should be adequate.

There are other reasons to use a diesel fuel conditioner however such as water removal and cetane improvement.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 04:14 PM
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Lubricity agents are not added to ULSD at the refinery, they are not allowed to be shipped through the pipeline because they will contaminate the jet fuel. Hence the lubricity agents are added at the terminal level (where they take the raw diesel out of the pipeline near you) So each individual terminal operator must address the lubricity deficiency in ULSD (< 14 ppm sulfur). This is an accepted fact of life in terminal operations. Powdered lubricity agents are available and cheap. Some terminal operators add 2% biodiesel to solve the lubricity issue. The fact that each terminal company has to add the lubricity agent can lead to inconsistancies from supplier to supplier.

It is in the best interest of the terminal operator to get it right, they are all to aware of the challenges involved with ULSD. So it is not a big issue for newer cars, but you can always add an aftermarket fuel additive to be sure.

My mercedes engine is a 79 and was built before they started removing sulfur from diesel. It requires an additive to keep it from knocking like a MF, I have used redline 85+ for years . Purrs like a kitten with the redline.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
Lubricity agents are not added to ULSD at the refinery, they are not allowed to be shipped through the pipeline because they will contaminate the jet fuel. Hence the lubricity agents are added at the terminal level (where they take the raw diesel out of the pipeline near you) So each individual terminal operator must address the lubricity deficiency in ULSD (< 14 ppm sulfur). This is an accepted fact of life in terminal operations. Powdered lubricity agents are available and cheap. Some terminal operators add 2% biodiesel to solve the lubricity issue. The fact that each terminal company has to add the lubricity agent can lead to inconsistancies from supplier to supplier.

It is in the best interest of the terminal operator to get it right, they are all to aware of the challenges involved with ULSD. So it is not a big issue for newer cars, but you can always add an aftermarket fuel additive to be sure.

My mercedes engine is a 79 and was built before they started removing sulfur from diesel. It requires an additive to keep it from knocking like a MF, I have used redline 85+ for years . Purrs like a kitten with the redline.
Ok, I had to read this 3 times before I understood what the heck you were saying.... it could be the 6 beers and two glasses of wine but i'd prefer to think not. However, I know understand what your saying and I guess i'll be adding some type of additive or some off-road diesel to my tank here and there. You must be in the fuel business?

Thanks!
Dave
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Old June 28th, 2007, 10:04 PM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG
it could be the 6 beers and two glasses of wine ...
6 beers and 2 glasses of wine while on D90? You're my kind of people! time to save up for an Engel 40...no make that a 60!
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Old June 29th, 2007, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander
6 beers and 2 glasses of wine while on D90? You're my kind of people! time to save up for an Engel 40...no make that a 60!
What's the smallest subzero made?
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  #12  
Old June 29th, 2007, 08:38 AM
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I develop biodiesel projects for a living and have learned more than I care to about the petroleum distribution system in the US. They are our customers.

ULSD is a good thing because it will allow the manufacturers to bring out particulate traps and catalytic converters for diesel vehicles (mercedes bluetech) making them cleaner than gasoline engines. The whole process is being pushed forward by the EPA mandate that called for the reduction of sulfur in the diesel fuel.

Sulfur is the component in diesel that lubricates the upper cylinder walls during combustion. Remove the sulfur, you remove the lubrication. There is a second problem in ULSD that few talk about. That is the reduction of conductivity in the fuel as a result of lowering sulfur.

Since the fuel is less conductive it is more prone to fire from rapid static discharge becuase the staic charge is held in the fuel until released instead of disipating into the tank holding it.

Powdered lubricity agents do nothing to address conductivity issues in ULSD. Biodiesel solves this problem quite well. A blend of 98% ULSD and 2% Biodiesel has lubricity that exceeds #2 diesel and no conductivity issues.

That should give you reason to drink tonight!
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  #13  
Old June 29th, 2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landrovered
Sulfur is the component in diesel that lubricates the upper cylinder walls during combustion. Remove the sulfur, you remove the lubrication.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. It is one of those bad internet myths.

The lubrication simply comes from the oil period. The lubricity is reduced due to hydrotreating of the oil. Hydrotreating is the normal way of removing the sulfur.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 10:29 AM
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so 1/2 gallon of biodiesel in each tank should do the trick. worthwhile to get a jerry can, fill it with biodiesel, and keep it in the garage as my additive. what about clean veg oil? if I put in 2 quarts of that 2 a tank, is that just as good? much easier to keep around the house.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. It is one of those bad internet myths.

The lubrication simply comes from the oil period. The lubricity is reduced due to hydrotreating of the oil. Hydrotreating is the normal way of removing the sulfur.
Thank you for the correction. It is substantiated in this from a University of California Report:
"Lower sulfur levels will reduce the lubricity of diesel fuel as a result of severe hydrotreating refiners are expected to use to meet the new standards."
I prefer to be technically correct whever possible, the end result is the same however, reduced lubricity.

Follow-up Post:

Overlander: Biodiesel, yes... straight veg oil, I wouldn't.

Here is a discussion of this subject which I have stolen from Journey to Forever:
The properties of canola oil and diesel are very similar, except a significant difference in viscosity, with canola oil having 12 times the viscosity of diesel. Even after heating to around 80 deg C it is still six times as viscous as diesel. This leads to problems with flow of oils from the fuel tank to the engine, blockages in filters and subsequent engine power losses. Even if preheating is used to lower the viscosity, difficulties may still be encountered with starting due to the temperatures required for oils to give off ignitable vapours. Further, engines can suffer coking and gumming which leads to sticking of piston rings due to multi-bonded compounds undergoing pyrolyses. Polyunsaturated fatty acids also undergo oxidation in storage causing gum formation and at high temperatures where complex oxidative and thermal polymerisation can occur.

To date there have been many problems found with using vegetable oils directly in diesel engines (especially in direct injection engines).

1. Coking and trumpet formation on the injectors to such an extent that fuel atomisation does not occur properly or is even prevented as a result of plugged orifices,
2. Carbon deposits,
3. Oil ring sticking,
4. Thickening and gelling of the lubricating oil as a result of contamination by vegetable oils, and
5. Lubricating problems.

Other disadvantages to the use of vegetable oils and especially animal fats, are the high viscosity (about 11 to 17 times higher than diesel fuel), lower volatilities content which causes the formation of deposits in engines due to incomplete combustion and incorrect vaporisation characteristics... At high temperatures there can be some problems with polymerisation of unsaturated fatty acids, this is where cross-linking starts to occur between other molecules, causing very large agglomerations to be formed and consequently gumming occurs.

Although some diesel engines can run pure vegetable oils, turbocharged direct injection engines such as trucks are prone to many problems.

-- From "Research into Biodiesel Kinetics and Catalyst Development", by Adam Karl Khan, Department of Chemical Engineering, University of Queensland, 17 May 2002 -- Acrobat file, 432Kb:
http://www.cheque.uq.edu.au/ugrad/ch...han_Thesis.pdf
Transeterification (Biodiesel Refining) breaks the triglyceride chains apart and attaches a methanol molecule to the end, the resulting methyl ester maintains higher lubricity properties without the problems of gumming, coking and polymerization.

One important note about biodiesel in higher concentration blends (IMHO over 50% biodiesel) require the replacement of the rubber parts of your fuel system with Viton or some other material that can withstand the effects of the biodiesel. For B2, B5, B10, B20 these effects are not an issue.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 01:49 PM
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mark kellgren
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good info, thanks. sets the record straight.
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  #17  
Old June 29th, 2007, 09:24 PM
DaveG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander
so 1/2 gallon of biodiesel in each tank should do the trick. worthwhile to get a jerry can, fill it with biodiesel, and keep it in the garage as my additive. what about clean veg oil? if I put in 2 quarts of that 2 a tank, is that just as good? much easier to keep around the house.
How about home heating oil, same deal? Good for a gallon here and there as an additive. I don't have access to any biodiesel.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 08:56 AM
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I use a fuel additive just to be safe in me Disco
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG
How about home heating oil, same deal? Good for a gallon here and there as an additive. I don't have access to any biodiesel.
No, not really. When the engine is cold, you can get coking in the cylinders. Normally SVO (straight vegetable oil) setups warm up and cool down on BD or dino diesel and only switch when hot. Also the SVO needs heating to keep the viscosity under control.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlander
so 1/2 gallon of biodiesel in each tank should do the trick. worthwhile to get a jerry can, fill it with biodiesel, and keep it in the garage as my additive. what about clean veg oil? if I put in 2 quarts of that 2 a tank, is that just as good? much easier to keep around the house.
If you are not going to go over 2% of vegetable oil in your diesel tank I would do it in a hearbeat. I'd probably go up to 25% easily in the summer.

I know quite at least two (110) 2.5L and two (Disco) 300Tdi that do not run any diesel/bio-diesel (except when too far from home). Instead they run 100% of heated straight vegetable oil and/or some other type of low viscosity mineral oil ("recycled" oil! ;-) ). No ill-effect so far (it's been a few thousands of miles). In countries were diesel/gasoline prices are much higher than here, people are more keen to "testing" things out on their own! ;-)

If the cost of the conversion was worth it, I'd probably consider a SVO setup. Right now, I enjoy my V8 as much as I can.
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