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  #41  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:31 AM
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  #42  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chowbird View Post
LR is lost in an identity crisis. They can't decide who they want to be. The money crowd or the hard core adventure crowd. In the mean time, Jeep is making solid decision after decision. I'm not thrilled with what jeep is doing, I prefer the old school stuff, but it is certainly benefiting them. They're just pushing Land Rover aside, "if you can't make a decision, we will."
A few of us have said LR should split the Range Rover brand onto its own. My wife had a '13 L405 and that thing is nice! I tried hard to get her into something else - Audi Q7, BMW X5, GMC Yukon Denali and used G550 and they just did not have that mix of seating, elegance, style and drivability that the L405 has. I feel the Range Rover brand with the L405 and the RRS have it pretty figured out.

But the Land Rover part of it has lost its identity like you said. I feel like there could be a shared platform/frame that could be used in a few different configurations (just like the Defender, duh). Go back to the basic and rugged which started the brand off.

I actually think if they split LR and RR it will help the Jaguar brand too which seems weak as well.
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  #43  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:43 AM
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LR has had so many owners and been pulled in so many directions each time a new one has picked up the keys.

Many projects green lighted then cancelled over the years have wasted limited resources.

To me, its not surprising that the Defender's sell by date came and went with no replacement in sight.

How about a Wrangler like this?

The Jeep J8: Egyptian military Jeep Wrangler
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  #44  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:49 AM
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Another issue is that its been almost 20 years since a Defender was sold in the States. I would venture to say most non-Land Rover people are completely unfamiliar with the model.


Whatever they come up with they need to make it unique so people won't just think its a Jeep.
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  #45  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:52 AM
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Wanna be or not, Jeep is actually doing something. They are putting out products, both production and demo, that the market likes/loves. They are trying(and succeeding) to appeal to the Wrangler/Defender market. Rover is not even putting forth an effort because they have no interest in the Wrangler/Defender market.
We can't pick on JLR only.

I am surprised as hell Chevy and Ford haven't done anything to grab some of the Jeep JK market. Why the hell hasn't Ford brought back the Bronco or Chevy the Blazer? The 2 of them could make something in a week from their parts bin and a small skunkworks team.

I can't speak for the general population but a downsides F250 drivetrain and small Ford diesel with a classic Bronco exterior feel and modern interior would be sweet!
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  #46  
Old July 21st, 2016, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
We can't pick on JLR only.

I am surprised as hell Chevy and Ford haven't done anything to grab some of the Jeep JK market. Why the hell hasn't Ford brought back the Bronco or Chevy the Blazer? The 2 of them could make something in a week from their parts bin and a small skunkworks team.

I can't speak for the general population but a downsides F250 drivetrain and small Ford diesel with a classic Bronco exterior feel and modern interior would be sweet!

Ford has the Troller which if they could make legal in the US would sell. Just how long will it take them is any ones guess.

GM bought a brand to make it work and had a portfolio laid out. They marketed horribly and the economy didn't help them either.
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  #47  
Old July 21st, 2016, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don View Post
I am surprised as hell Chevy and Ford haven't done anything to grab some of the Jeep JK market. Why the hell hasn't Ford brought back the Bronco or Chevy the Blazer? The 2 of them could make something in a week from their parts bin and a small skunkworks team.
True. But aside from the nostalgia, are the Bronco or Blazer worth resurrecting? I could be totally mistaken, but the Bronco that people really want are the 1st gen last built almost 40 years ago. The Blazer that people think of fondly is the one built 45 years ago.

I'm kind of sad that American marketing folks think they can slap a name on a product and expect people to somehow buy it because of this nostalgia factor. But that's how the American market lives and dies. We'd wipe our butts with $10/roll Land Rover toilet paper if they made it

The hope is that the substance underneath the Defender replacement goes further than simply nostalgic butt-wiping.
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  #48  
Old July 21st, 2016, 01:27 PM
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Ok, lets throw some science at this. I work for a data company which has vehicle ownership data. Pulled up what we have on Jeep Wrangler Owners.
Average Age: 51
Average Income: 92K
Own their home
Married
Very low cost of living
Live in rural areas

Based on Demographics alone and access to LR dealers, I doubt the New Defender is pulling any of Jeeps prime customers. Furthermore, rural areas in America tend to subscribe to certain beliefs one of which is a notion of "American made" is best so the notion of an expensive British truck is less likely to sell within that community mind set. Ok now let's address the millennial comments being made in this thread.. if we look at the fastest growing segment for new Jeep ownership the average age drops to 30 and urbanicity moves to the city. This is your millennial group buying into "vehicle lifestyles" something that Jeep is good at selling. Now I would argue that LR has a shot at this market with the Defender except for one glaring problem.. average income for this group is $50K and LR "vehicle lifestlye" image has been geared more towards exclusivity and luxury in recent years than it has affordability and utilitarianism. This group will not be able to afford a Defender since it's sure to be priced well above a JK and probably won't appeal to their market. As noted earlier, most people, especially millennials, are not car people and don't see a Land Rover and think Camel Trophy, farm truck, Darien gap etc like we do. The old Defender used to speak for itself with it's rugged looks. Requirements on new vehicles around safety plus the market demand for creature comforts will pretty much guarantee that the new truck will leave the factory with it's balls chopped off. Will it be potentially very capable off road? Yes, I believe they will 100% engineer it for that but even if it has crawl control, factory lockers, dislocating sway bars etc, it won't necessarily look the part the way the old one did and that will affect it's ability to attract customers.

So that leaves us. The core LR market. I don't have data for Defender owners but let's look at Land Rover across the board. Age: 49, owns their home, married, lives in the burbs average income is $163 grand. Predominantly they own the RR sport. So will this group buy a Defender that's attempting to promote a rugged lifestyle? Let's look at this groups other lifestyle choices and background. Highest indexing attributes.. Majored in Economics/Finance, shops at Whole Foods, have 2 amex cards, average home value is 850 grand, and they also index high for ownership of a MB G-class. So is a Benz SUV driving, well to do finance guy gonna buy a Defender? Certainly some but not sure a ton are going to be swayed from the more luxury side of the brand. For the purists, it will come down to making the new Defender more capable.. which means mods. LR will NEVER touch Jeep's aftermarket. So will there be enough of an aftermarket to turn the new Defender into a vehicle we would want to drive? Aftermarket is driven by demand and for all the reasons above, I'm hesitant to say the core buyers of this new truck are going to be looking to mod it to the point where the market will bear a ton of options beyond AB, RN and the dealer.

I don't think the Defender will get the younger market given the economics and cache of the brand. People who buy JKs today are for the most part going to keep buying the wrangler. People that buy 150s, 1500s, Tacos, etc might buy the Defender but most likely because they're attracted by the notion of retroism of the brand name. LR probably knows that and is aware they have to build a truck to cater to this market so the Defender will definitely be toned down and will compensate with off road tech and will be bolstered by a marketing campaign around nostalgia and history of the Defender name. The question remains if this will be tech that we as Defender enthusiasts, can build upon to create the rugged, capable, tough (relative) vehicle we have now. Otherwise this will just be an LR version of the old FJ cruiser.
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  #49  
Old July 21st, 2016, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflash868 View Post
Ok, lets throw some science at this. I work for a data company which has vehicle ownership data. Pulled up what we have on Jeep Wrangler Owners.
Average Age: 51
Average Income: 92K
Own their home
Married
Very low cost of living
Live in rural areas

Based on Demographics alone and access to LR dealers, I doubt the New Defender is pulling any of Jeeps prime customers. Furthermore, rural areas in America tend to subscribe to certain beliefs one of which is a notion of "American made" is best so the notion of an expensive British truck is less likely to sell within that community mind set.

Awesome background. That data would be fun to have access to.

Do the people that "want" that American Made car to be Italian owned though? Heck they probably don't even realize it. I was amazed at home many people were either confused or had a "yeah American" attitude when they saw the Pope riding in a Wrangler in Philly in September.
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  #50  
Old July 21st, 2016, 02:07 PM
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In Suburban Boston a Wrangler 4dr is the prize for Dad for graduating from a Minivan.
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  #51  
Old July 21st, 2016, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflash868 View Post
Ok, lets throw some science at this. I work for a data company which has vehicle ownership data. Pulled up what we have on Jeep Wrangler Owners.
Average Age: 51
Average Income: 92K
Own their home
Married
Very low cost of living
Live in rural areas
Do you have data for just new car sales?
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  #52  
Old July 21st, 2016, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoronos View Post
True. But aside from the nostalgia, are the Bronco or Blazer worth resurrecting? I could be totally mistaken, but the Bronco that people really want are the 1st gen last built almost 40 years ago. The Blazer that people think of fondly is the one built 45 years ago. I'm kind of sad that American marketing folks think they can slap a name on a product and expect people to somehow buy it because of this nostalgia factor. But that's how the American market lives and dies. We'd wipe our butts with $10/roll Land Rover toilet paper if they made it The hope is that the substance underneath the Defender replacement goes further than simply nostalgic butt-wiping.
Very good points and lol about the Land Rover TP!

Regarding the Bronco: I'd imagine if you could do something along the lines of the modern day Mustang. The Bronco is also a great name and has heritage. Ford has plenty in its bin for power plants, suspension and drivetrain. Interior bits could be a mix of the Transit and their car lines or downsized PS design. Pen a body like how the modern Mustang mimics the original Mustang and there you go. That's another reason Jeep JK's are so hot - they didn't forget their roots and the latest ones are a modern interpretation of the CJ.

Chevy on the other hand is harder. The Tahoe is probably pretty close to a modern Blazer. The Suburban has had a very good evolution IMO (although the latest one is on the soft side). I still think they could make up a 4 door "Jeep" concept based on the Canyon underpinnings.
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  #53  
Old July 21st, 2016, 02:43 PM
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nmarkiw is reviving Land Rover & doing a much better job than the home office. Discuss.
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  #54  
Old July 21st, 2016, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan76 View Post
Ford has the Troller which if they could make legal in the US would sell. Just how long will it take them is any ones guess. GM bought a brand to make it work and had a portfolio laid out. They marketed horribly and the economy didn't help them either.
Good points.

That Troller (from the pictures I could find) fell from the top of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. Yuck.
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  #55  
Old July 21st, 2016, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by don View Post
Good points.

That Troller (from the pictures I could find) fell from the top of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. Yuck.

Lol. I thought I was the only one. Originally I thought it was nice but I just looked again. Nope.
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  #56  
Old July 21st, 2016, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan76 View Post
Awesome background. That data would be fun to have access to.

Do the people that "want" that American Made car to be Italian owned though? Heck they probably don't even realize it. I was amazed at home many people were either confused or had a "yeah American" attitude when they saw the Pope riding in a Wrangler in Philly in September.
Ha having access to this kind of data is a blessing and a curse. It's fun to shed some light on interesting conversations like the future of the defender but much less so when it comes to politics, religion, race, etc.. My company works with voter files for both the Republican and Democratic Parties (and some of the more controversial special interest groups) and having access to that data while listening to the political arguments that have dominated this election year is pretty tough. Whether it's your friends or family, or even people on defendersource it's really shocking how far apart perception and reality are in some cases. I wish I could just slap the raw data down in some cases but alas.. NDAs.

Anywho, as for the auto data, it's a mix of new vehicle ownership that's derived from purchase data and financing details. For used vehicles that we use the same but is also bolstered by bar code scans off the b pillar that corroborated with the owners details. It's information that's maintained to determine who owns the warranty. So we can see second hand ownership of dealer maintained vehicles and new cars but obviously not the Defender. Although interestingly, we can corroborate aftermarket purchase data with vehicle ownership so we would be able to identify people who are into modding their trucks to some degree.
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  #57  
Old July 21st, 2016, 05:53 PM
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Land Rover and the new Defender is like ID software and the new Doom. They will take forever on releasing it all the while other vehicles will keep dominating the market and making people happy. When it comes out it'll be a huge disappointment and very lackluster.
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  #58  
Old July 22nd, 2016, 11:24 AM
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Land Rover and the new Defender is like ID software and the new Doom. They will take forever on releasing it all the while other vehicles will keep dominating the market and making people happy. When it comes out it'll be a huge disappointment and very lackluster.
you know the new Doom has been out for at least a month now.
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  #59  
Old July 22nd, 2016, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
Land Rover and the new Defender is like ID software and the new Doom. They will take forever on releasing it all the while other vehicles will keep dominating the market and making people happy. When it comes out it'll be a huge disappointment and very lackluster.
Another video game example would be Blizzard and Diablo III. Fans waited 12 years between Diablo II and III which raised the expectations so high that it became insurmountable. Doom had the advantage that it was considered a reboot which Diablo III wasn't.
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  #60  
Old July 22nd, 2016, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by flippedrover View Post
you know the new Doom has been out for at least a month now.
I do; however, I remember the original in 1993 and all the others. I also remember the years of hype that took until a month ago to be "relieved".

------ Follow up post added July 22nd, 2016 09:57 PM ------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelvinite View Post
Another video game example would be Blizzard and Diablo III. Fans waited 12 years between Diablo II and III which raised the expectations so high that it became insurmountable. Doom had the advantage that it was considered a reboot which Diablo III wasn't.
True.
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