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  #21  
Old July 20th, 2016, 11:32 PM
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Whatever it is in the end it's not going to make a dent in the actual truck market in the US. Don't confuse small pickup trucks for 1500 series trucks. Totally different animals.

What it will do is ruin Land Rover's chance at breaking into the market at all with the Defender replacement. Jeep will corner the market before LR releases anything and all the would be buyers will already have their new toys in the driveway. More fail will ensue.
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  #22  
Old July 20th, 2016, 11:55 PM
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I have this discussion with my sons all the time. Jeep's management really put out a good product. I have had several jeeps in the past 30 years...mostly CJs. I still have my 76 CJ5 and I have a 2010 JK-X. The 2010 is so well made/designed it's scary. I beat the crap out of it and have had about $500 bucks worth of stuff break in all that time.

That being said, the niche and the core crowd get blown up when this (sales explosion into mainstream market) happens. I used to be (for years) the only person in my town that had a lifted jeep with 35's. Now they are everywhere...and I mean everywhere. Pull up next to another jeep at the gas station and out hops a high school senior or millennial who is oblivious to the fact there is a community and that the community is a huge chunk of the fun. They all have 35's...but to a T, they all have plastic bumpers. If I pull up next to them in the CJ or worse yet , the Defender, they look up and just keep texting.
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  #23  
Old July 21st, 2016, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowbird View Post
I have this discussion with my sons all the time. Jeep's management really put out a good product. I have had several jeeps in the past 30 years...mostly CJs. I still have my 76 CJ5 and I have a 2010 JK-X. The 2010 is so well made/designed it's scary. I beat the crap out of it and have had about $500 bucks worth of stuff break in all that time. That being said, the niche and the core crowd get blown up when this (sales explosion into mainstream market) happens. I used to be (for years) the only person in my town that had a lifted jeep with 35's. Now they are everywhere...and I mean everywhere. Pull up next to another jeep at the gas station and out hops a high school senior or millennial who is oblivious to the fact there is a community and that the community is a huge chunk of the fun. They all have 35's...but to a T, they all have plastic bumpers. If I pull up next to them in the CJ or worse yet , the Defender, they look up and just keep texting.
So true.

If Quadratec didn't make modding your new Jeep easy enough, Rocky Ridge will.

I did have one lady that was driving a nice new JK say that my 110 was a "real Jeep" at the gas station one day.
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  #24  
Old July 21st, 2016, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Overlander View Post
or a transfer case
Or that Ford use to make them.
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  #25  
Old July 21st, 2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
What it will do is ruin Land Rover's chance at breaking into the market at all with the Defender replacement. Jeep will corner the market before LR releases anything and all the would be buyers will already have their new toys in the driveway. More fail will ensue.
LR can't sell a pickup in the US. Chicken Tax.

As far as a Defender goes, there is a ton of room. Jeep makes 10 times more Wranglers than LR ever made Defenders.
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  #26  
Old July 21st, 2016, 09:01 AM
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As far as a Defender goes, there is a ton of room.
If LR made a Defender today that was priced competitively with (higher end) Jeeps ($40k) they would sell a shit ton of them in the US.

My personal belief is they will not do this and instead release a $60k turd bucket called a Defender. I hope they prove me wrong.
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  #27  
Old July 21st, 2016, 09:04 AM
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My personal belief is they will not do this and instead release a $60k turd bucket called a Defender. I hope they prove me wrong.
They will prove you right. An RRS with a retro styled body and room for a bit bigger tire is what it will be.
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  #28  
Old July 21st, 2016, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red90 View Post
LR can't sell a pickup in the US. Chicken Tax.

As far as a Defender goes, there is a ton of room. Jeep makes 10 times more Wranglers than LR ever made Defenders.
They could probably find a way to get around the chicken tax. Whether it makes financial sense or not is the question.
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  #29  
Old July 21st, 2016, 09:08 AM
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They will prove you right. An RRS with a retro styled body and room for a bit bigger tire is what it will be.
Yea. It's whatever it doesn't even bother me. We can have our Defenders as they are and awesome, and get a nice SUV as a daily. I have my eyes on a used MB G500 or similar.
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  #30  
Old July 21st, 2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Daddymow View Post
More like 95% of jeep owners don't know what the hell a live axle or locker is, you give them too much credit.
you may be right, I know of 3 power wagon owners whom decided against the diesel engine option because of the cost, so they opted for the hemi. they have the sway link disconnect but don't know how or why to use it, they cannot judge how powerful a 15k lbs winch can be and one is still confused on traction control versus lockers.

All 3 have factory fully decked off road vehicles but are afraid of using them due to lack of understanding.

I learned of this during the last big snow at work discussing whom would make in and out of the yard with ease.
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  #31  
Old July 21st, 2016, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rover4x4 View Post
The wrangler Africa edition would make me seriously consider letting go
This, or if the Jeep pickup remotely resembles the brute.... I'll definitely be facing an existential crisis
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  #32  
Old July 21st, 2016, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by madcowdungbeetle View Post
This, or if the Jeep pickup remotely resembles the brute.... I'll definitely be facing an existential crisis
That thing is a wanna be Defender. Paint color, white roof, wheels and all. Surprised it doesn't have jump seats in the back and tire on the rear door.

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  #33  
Old July 21st, 2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by st0k3d View Post
That thing is a wanna be Defender. Paint color, white roof, wheels and all. Surprised it doesn't have jump seats in the back and tire on the rear door.

I would buy that in a heartbeat to replace the 110 I have. Every time I drive the gx470 I wonder why I still have the 110. I know that Jeep won't be as nice as the gx470 or as rugged as a 110 from the 80s, but the only thing going against that Jeep is the seating position.
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  #34  
Old July 21st, 2016, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mgreenspan View Post
I would buy that in a heartbeat to replace the 110 I have.
Confusion on my part. Is it not trivial for someone to manufacture an aluminum roof like that and bolt it to a JK Unlimited, replacing the existing roof?

What prevents this from being some drop-in Quadratec-style catalog mod?
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  #35  
Old July 21st, 2016, 10:30 AM
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Step bumper at all

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  #36  
Old July 21st, 2016, 10:57 AM
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LR is lost in an identity crisis. They can't decide who they want to be. The money crowd or the hard core adventure crowd. In the mean time, Jeep is making solid decision after decision. I'm not thrilled with what jeep is doing, I prefer the old school stuff, but it is certainly benefiting them. They're just pushing Land Rover aside, "if you can't make a decision, we will."
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  #37  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:01 AM
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Wanna be or not, Jeep is actually doing something. They are putting out products, both production and demo, that the market likes/loves. They are trying(and succeeding) to appeal to the Wrangler/Defender market. Rover is not even putting forth an effort because they have no interest in the Wrangler/Defender market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by st0k3d View Post
That thing is a wanna be Defender. Paint color, white roof, wheels and all. Surprised it doesn't have jump seats in the back and tire on the rear door.

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  #38  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:16 AM
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Yes, they are doing something.

I drove a 4-door for a week in Hawaii, and was really liking it. Even the soft top was comfortable and quiet. It had just enough room for us and the two kids. It would need to have a good roof rack to do any real travel. But it drove well, got good MPG, and I'm sure it's fine off road even stock.

The point really isn't whether 90% of Jeep owners know how to lock their diff or not, the point is Jeep is making and selling these things like hotcakes, and Rover is, up to now, ignoring this entire market that is really only dominated by Jeep and Toyota. A true Defender, marketed for off-road adventure, would do well, even priced a bit above Jeep. ...in America...

However. The flip side of this is what I saw in the UK while driving the motorways and backroads for a week.... Yes, I saw lots of Defenders (counted at least 20 per day) and lots of Discos and more Freelanders than I knew even existed. But I expected to see more Defenders. Instead, the utility/pickup truck/work truck market is flooded with Ford Rangers, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and every kind of version of the Transit van you can imagine from Peugot, Citroen, Ford, Mercedes, etc....

If I had to guess, I'd say I saw 40-50 "other" 4-door pickup trucks, and maybe 100 transit van style vehicles, for every Defender I saw. And only a small fraction of those Defenders were being used for anything but a quirky, cool daily driver.

Unless Rover pulls one out of the hat and creates a true Defender that can be nice on-road, pimped, be good for overlanding, and be used on the farm... it's done. Based on what I saw in the UK, any future Defender is DOA.
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  #39  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Chowbird View Post
LR is lost in an identity crisis. They can't decide who they want to be. The money crowd or the hard core adventure crowd. In the mean time, Jeep is making solid decision after decision. I'm not thrilled with what jeep is doing, I prefer the old school stuff, but it is certainly benefiting them. They're just pushing Land Rover aside, "if you can't make a decision, we will."
And I would add that to make good decisions, you need information. Every year Jeep comes up with radical concepts from retro to urban and puts it in front of true off road enthusiasts, as well as plastered on every car magazine to cover the full demographic. That spectrum of feedback gives them course corrections on what variants to send to market that are financially viable.

Now think about how many concepts we see from LR. I can only think of one recently, and Ken and Barbie loved it.
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  #40  
Old July 21st, 2016, 11:25 AM
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Gents

I have to say I disagree with most of you who have expressed negativity toward the next generation of Defender as I believe/hope what is coming will be a credible replacement for Defender. I'm not writing this to pick a fight, or rub people up the wrong way, I'm just expressing my thoughts as I see them.

I was very concerned when I saw the DC100 concept as it was fundamentally going away from the utility truck we love, but I now believe Jerry McGovern and LR got such a lot of S*** from the their global peer group review, (those folks who they contact who are LR diehards worldwide) who pretty much told them they were about to potentially throw the baby out with the bathwater, they have now gone back to a more utility based design brief. So I agree with many of the criticisms voiced here but only in so much as it pertains to the DC100 Concept.

So what do we think we know, from what I've read it will have the LR4 aluminium chassis or similar, it will have beam axles, it will have the down and dirty field version and the tricked out tech version, it will have ground breaking off road prowess, may even utilize electric motors for torque control. and will according to Jerry have more than a passing resemblance to the current Defender, it will have the same lug nut pattern as Toyota for interchangeability, it will be aimed at all major global markets. Now don't ask me for specific references for all of this but it's what I've read, fact or fiction, history will be the judge, but if these basics are correct then it is not a unibody. If it's not a unibody, like DC100 then it should be configurable into all sorts of variants like a Defender.

I've followed Land Rover for nearly 40 years and in my opinion, in recent years they have not put a foot wrong with their model line up in terms of market success, would I buy a new Discovery Sport, Evoque, full sized Range Rover absolutely not, but that is me, they weren't aimed at me as the buyer. Their overall production numbers have doubled, they get all the money they need from Tata as it's their leading cash cow, their design brief need not be compromised as in past eras due to lack of cash.

So in summary, call me a dreamer, an optimist, delusional, blah blah, but I believe the wise old sages at Land Rover have reined Jerry in because they know that this model anchors the entire product line, the DNA, the image, everything.

Simply put the replacement to Defender must embody all that has gone before it and all that is expected in the foreseeable future to be the best production offroad vehicle in its class in the world and that is what I believe/hope is being worked on now.

Time for some Texas sun

Cheers

Fraser
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