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  #41  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4
well I have never seen any Defenders on 35" with a stock spare.

Budweiser could do a "real men of genius" ad for that now classic look. While the chrome tube bar bumpers and nerf bars may no longer be the hot accessory rounding out the picture, the never-heard-of-them tires and ugly rims remain.
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  #42  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
I like Jeeps. I wheel with them almost every trip. Stock to stock they are better offroad.....

Elaborate vile fiend!

What does a Jeep-assuming a non-Rubicon-yield out of the box that is superior to a Defender? I'm not very familiar with Jeep specs.
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  #43  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Menasco
Elaborate vile fiend!

What does a Jeep-assuming a non-Rubicon-yield out of the box that is superior to a Defender? I'm not very familiar with Jeep specs.
Ahh, you called me friend! Oops, nope, Fiend. Thats cool. Non Rubicon? Nothing really. Bone stock to Bone stock they are pretty evenly matched up. I would say the 6 cylinder Jeep motor is a better powerplant than the 3.9 or 4.0. Jeep has better departure angle. D has better suspension. Both have weak axles. D has better t-case. Almost identical wheelbase. I was mostly thinking of a Rubicon when I said they were better. And a Rubi will crush a D. But the D will have panties thrown at it, so........
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  #44  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 10:55 PM
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Ahh, the old Jeep vs Land Rover arguments rage on. Very few magazine articles really test the vehicles stoutly, and even fewer reviewers know enough about suspensions, drivelines, frames, gearing, or design considarations to put forth truly informed and cogent opinions on the true strengths and weaknesses of the vehicles. The articles usually merely express the preconceived biases of the writer. My biases have long ago leaned toward favoring the Land Rover.

I have been waging this "war" for over 37 years, and have driven Land Rovers as well as Jeeps in all sorts of terrain. My experience has been that a stock Jeep will go just about anywhere that a stock Land Rover will go - - just not as often. The vast majority of Jeeps I have either driven or partnered with showed signs of terminal aging before the Land Rovers did. The Jeeps tended to start losing some vital components and becoming less and less reliable long before my Land Rover began needing some serious TLC. Of the 6 close friends I have had who owned Jeeps and went offroading with me, 4 of them decided to buy Land Rovers.

The new Jeeps are supposedly sporting stouter frames and better drivelines than their predecessors, and that may lessen the long-term differences between the two. I have not seen enough of the new Jeeps to say they are better or worse than the Defender - at least for the purpose I have mine (combination of traveling and some serious offroading). For now, I will stay with the Defender because I feel confident that I will normally "chicken out" in a situation before my Land Rover does. I have always respected Jeeps, as I do most of the people who go offroading with them. Hopefully they will feel the same way about my Land Rover.
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  #45  
Old December 23rd, 2007, 11:42 PM
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Trevor K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Menasco
Elaborate vile fiend!

What does a Jeep-assuming a non-Rubicon-yield out of the box that is superior to a Defender? I'm not very familiar with Jeep specs.
why are you excluding the rubicons, sure a bone stock base model jeep will certainly be inferior to a much higher priced product.
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  #46  
Old December 24th, 2007, 10:00 AM
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Charles Galpin
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My experience has been that a stock rubicon will get hung up on rocks far quicker than a stock D90 because they don't have that much clearance ootb, so even though they have lockers a D90 can get over the obstacle without lockers. And then you'd be a fool to do serious wheeling without the addition of a bunch of skids, a tummy tuck and a suspension upgrade to get better clearance anyway.

But even a D90 needs at least diff guards and preferably a steering guard or beefed up drag link and sliders if you don't want to cause damage, and costs more for both the starting point, and the upgrades

But I ask myself all the time why I wheel my D90 because it's a very expensive toy to abuse. Jeep's are way cheaper to get parts, upgrades, and accessories for. At some point my decision to drive rovers can no longer be logically described or justified, besides saying It's what I like

charles
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  #47  
Old December 24th, 2007, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
My experience has been that a stock rubicon will get hung up on rocks far quicker than a stock D90 because they don't have that much clearance ootb, so even though they have lockers a D90 can get over the obstacle without lockers. And then you'd be a fool to do serious wheeling without the addition of a bunch of skids, a tummy tuck and a suspension upgrade to get better clearance anyway.

But even a D90 needs at least diff guards and preferably a steering guard or beefed up drag link and sliders if you don't want to cause damage, and costs more for both the starting point, and the upgrades

But I ask myself all the time why I wheel my D90 because it's a very expensive toy to abuse. Jeep's are way cheaper to get parts, upgrades, and accessories for. At some point my decision to drive rovers can no longer be logically described or justified, besides saying It's what I like

charles
Wishful thinking. Rubicons can go on trails a stock Defender has no business being on. I don't like it, but you have to be honest. But Rubicon owners are almost worse than LR owners.
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Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
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  #48  
Old December 24th, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Theres no comparison. Lock up a Defender and put a 4:1 low gear in it.
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  #49  
Old December 24th, 2007, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rover4x4
Theres no comparison. Lock up a Defender and put a 4:1 low gear in it.
You mean so it could follow a Rubicon? That'd be a different way of saying stock-to-stock, the Rubi wins; it also costs less, is brand new, has a (great) warranty, and has no part sourcing cost/issues.

I get the Rover thing, I think... but the facts are that a Rubicon will follow or lead a D90 anywhere unless the jeep driver's a real dumbass.
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  #50  
Old December 24th, 2007, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovertrader
I have a TJ that has waaay too much $$ spent on it, but it is a rock crawler like no Defender can be- mainly due to about a 1500# advantage..

**disclaimer about this post, Dale and I are friends and this is nothing we wouldn't say to each other over a beer at dinner after being on the trail**

Since you "stirred the pot" can you please explain how this is the case when, to my knowledge, Uwharrie is the only place this defender eating jeep has been seen in action. Uwharrie is fun, but not exactly the place hard core rigs go to test their mettle. Theory is for the internet wheelers.

Regarding "wheeling a vehicle this valuable this hard". I agree that defenders can have high barriers to entry and therefore wheeling/building them for potentially damaging trails is not for everyone...you probably have the same $$ in your jeep that you could have easily had in a well build defender if not more. Ron's point about residual I think holds true here too.

To your point about Paragon, it was one trip, one park. I'll be the first to admit some vehicles simply perform better in certain terrain than others...if you are looking for the best vehicle for any and every condition/trail imaginable you might as well be looking for a unicorn. As for the defender as we know it being a rhino, they only similarities they share are their tough nature and dwindling numbers.

Weight, at times, is an advantage. Ever seen a defender get really cross axled? Does a light jeep in the same situation have the same contact pressure. It's been my experience that in technical rock crawling the opposite is true, weight is often a good thing. I've seen many jeeps or other light, short wheelbase vehicles struggle with off camber or angled climb ledges really struggle compared to some defenders mainly because they completely unweight the front end (especially given the spring lift you generally have to go to in order to run a decent sized tire on a jeep). I see the exception to weight being in the unlimited class rock crawling series where lightweight buggies have to get over two story vertical walls and if they flip over the spotter/driver has to right them and keep going. Dry, steep rock waterfalls are the other exception where light and long really pay off.

I'm glad you are going to Las Cruces, you and your vehicle will be challenged and that is why we like to build them and wheel them.

Finally, this really has little to do with the orginial article comparison but I'd compare your quote about your jeep on a defender board to that of a late hit on a quarterback right in front of his bench...expect backlash buddy!

Tis
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  #51  
Old December 24th, 2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteD90
Weight, at times, is an advantage. Ever seen a defender get really cross axled? Does a light jeep in the same situation have the same contact pressure.
Tis
Defender 90 SW Curb Weight: 3,560 LB
Jeep Soft Top Curb Weight: 3,407 LB
Wrangler Unlimited Curb Weight: 3,694 LB
Defender 110 Curb Weight: 3,913 LB

POI: These numbers are the most common on the internet, so if innacuracies exist, sorry.

So this talk of weight advantage is completely false. Especially considering that the Jeep in question starts out with a 140LB DISADVANTAGE and then has at least 1000 LB of 4WPW bolted to it (probably more). My Defender is lighter than 90% of the Jeeps I wheel with.
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  #52  
Old December 24th, 2007, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
Wishful thinking. Rubicons can go on trails a stock Defender has no business being on. I don't like it, but you have to be honest. But Rubicon owners are almost worse than LR owners.
I said experience, not thinking. I guess all the Rubicon owners I've wheeled with can't drive then
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  #53  
Old December 24th, 2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgalpin
I said experience, not thinking. I guess all the Rubicon owners I've wheeled with can't drive then
Defender 90 Ground Clearance: 9in
Rubicon Ground Clearance: 10in

Defender Breakover: 34 Degrees
Rubicon Breakover: 28 Degrees

So the defender has an advantage in breakover of 6 degrees and a big disadvantage in axle clearance. So is 6 degrees enough to make up for Lockers front and Rear? No way. Maybe you do only wheel with terrible drivers.

But you do have a point that there is a lot of stuff under a Jeep that snags things. Of course, LR's have those retarded dumbo ears that hold the rear links to the frame.

All joking aside, I am not on the Jeep's side at all. I am just trying to be as accurate as possible.

When I first had my truck it was on 32's and otherwise totally stock. I was able to outperform a TJ on 35's with a rear locker. What does that mean? Nothing. I got lucky. What were we talking about again?
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Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
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  #54  
Old December 24th, 2007, 05:57 PM
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Yes I am saying they have lots of stuff that hangs low and gets caught up on things whereas most of it is tucked under the frame on the D90 despite whatever the published numbers are.

You reminded me that my comparison is biased in that I do have a 2" lift and almost 33" tires, so I'm not comparing a "stock" D90 which I guess is unfair (but were not talking huge mods here). I guess I'm out of line here.

Anyway who cares I happen to wheel more with Jeeps than Rovers and they are all fine by me as long as they are wheeling them!

charles
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  #55  
Old December 25th, 2007, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
Ahh, you called me friend! Oops, nope, Fiend. Thats cool. Non Rubicon? Nothing really. Bone stock to Bone stock they are pretty evenly matched up. I would say the 6 cylinder Jeep motor is a better powerplant than the 3.9 or 4.0. Jeep has better departure angle. D has better suspension. Both have weak axles. D has better t-case. Almost identical wheelbase. I was mostly thinking of a Rubicon when I said they were better. And a Rubi will crush a D. But the D will have panties thrown at it, so........
I thought that might be what you were referring to - the Rubicon. I didn't t think a plane-Jane Jeep would be able to surpass a similar D90. In fact I've alway surmised that a Defender would be able to edge out a Jeep, that is as long as it wasn't a Rubicon. By the way, what spline axles do Jeeps have?

So tell me, know that your Defender lacks a windshield what do you do to prevent panties ending up in your face? It must make driving a bit more challenging.

DJ
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  #56  
Old December 26th, 2007, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Menasco
I thought that might be what you were referring to - the Rubicon. I didn't t think a plane-Jane Jeep would be able to surpass a similar D90. In fact I've alway surmised that a Defender would be able to edge out a Jeep, that is as long as it wasn't a Rubicon. By the way, what spline axles do Jeeps have?

So tell me, know that your Defender lacks a windshield what do you do to prevent panties ending up in your face? It must make driving a bit more challenging.

DJ
The spline count in a Dana 30? Who cares, they are made out of whiddled wood. They are even weaker than stock D-90 stuff.

And I removed the windshield only for that reason.
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Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
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  #57  
Old December 26th, 2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
The spline count in a Dana 30? Who cares, they are made out of whiddled wood.
LOL

I love your anctedotes Buck. Direct & Succinct.
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  #58  
Old December 26th, 2007, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
Defender 90 SW Curb Weight: 3,560 LB
Jeep Soft Top Curb Weight: 3,407 LB
Wrangler Unlimited Curb Weight: 3,694 LB
Defender 110 Curb Weight: 3,913 LB

POI: These numbers are the most common on the internet, so if innacuracies exist, sorry.

So this talk of weight advantage is completely false. Especially considering that the Jeep in question starts out with a 140LB DISADVANTAGE and then has at least 1000 LB of 4WPW bolted to it (probably more). My Defender is lighter than 90% of the Jeeps I wheel with.

Numbers posted on a thread here about D90 weight in which you indicated you thought these numbers were on the low side.

Per the '97 Owners Manual, page 128:

Soft Top: 3,768 lbs

SW: 3,902 lbs


For a two door TJ my www shows numbers in the low #3400s and creep up from there with the unlimited and 4 door unlimited. I still think the defenders are heavier, maybe I can convince Dale to stop at a weight station and we can get a comparison between my rig and his. The one thing you did bring to light is that jeeps are getting heavier...but most of the jeeps I see or wheel with are still older vehicles that are in the low 3k range(curb) vs high 3k for a D90(curb). Add the bolt on or mod bulk and they start getting portly. If nothing else, I think we agree that the #1500 difference claimed is probably not accurate.

Don't think I'm making it out to the Hammers prior to Las Cruces this year but I do want to get out there and wheel with you. I hope everything goes well with the birth of your second child, and maybe we can catch up at Cruces in 09...or Moab this Sept?

Tis
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  #59  
Old December 26th, 2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteD90
Numbers posted on a thread here about D90 weight in which you indicated you thought these numbers were on the low side.

Per the '97 Owners Manual, page 128:

Soft Top: 3,768 lbs

SW: 3,902 lbs


For a two door TJ my www shows numbers in the low #3400s and creep up from there with the unlimited and 4 door unlimited. I still think the defenders are heavier, maybe I can convince Dale to stop at a weight station and we can get a comparison between my rig and his. The one thing you did bring to light is that jeeps are getting heavier...but most of the jeeps I see or wheel with are still older vehicles that are in the low 3k range(curb) vs high 3k for a D90(curb). Add the bolt on or mod bulk and they start getting portly. If nothing else, I think we agree that the #1500 difference claimed is probably not accurate.

Don't think I'm making it out to the Hammers prior to Las Cruces this year but I do want to get out there and wheel with you. I hope everything goes well with the birth of your second child, and maybe we can catch up at Cruces in 09...or Moab this Sept?

Tis
Thanks so much Tis. Anytime you can make it, I will take a few days off work and we can do a King of the Hammers tour and hit everything. I noticed when I was searching for weight on the computer that there were numbers all over the place. Thats why I used the most common and put a little disclaimer on there. That said, even taking the worse case numbers you can find, Dale started with a truck that weighed 70lb less than yours and then bolted almost everything he could find to it.

Also, when people tell you they have a truck weighing in the Low 3k's, 99% of the time their just plain wrong. I am constantly amazed how wrong people are. Everybody under-shoots. Most Jeeps you see rolling around on decent rubber (37-42) weight over 5k. Even tube buggies will end up in the 3,400 to 3,600 LB range.

I have wanted to get under 4k for my truck and I had to get rid of nearly everything in order to do it. Anyway, 1,500 like you said is nuts. I will put $$ on it weighing over 5k.

Cheers buddy.

Edit: One advantage a Jeep has is that a lot of the weight is in the body so when you start cutting things away, you can make a dent in the overall weight. When you cut a Defender apart, you lighten it very little. But, it also shows where all the weight on a D is, and why they are so stable for being so tall.
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Made it further than half of the other guys, but the Hammers won.
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  #60  
Old December 28th, 2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckon37s
Edit: One advantage a Jeep has is that a lot of the weight is in the body so when you start cutting things away, you can make a dent in the overall weight. When you cut a Defender apart, you lighten it very little. But, it also shows where all the weight on a D is, and why they are so stable for being so tall.

Wouldn't apply in Dale's case, as his entire tub has been plated with steel armor. I agree it is most certainly heavier than it was stock.

Will H.
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